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 #445570


Ace13
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 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

okay i found this link that discuss on the subject of thiamanese and says a few of the fish which contain it and a few which dont

thiamanese

i know its saying it about turtle but it also applys the same way with snakes



08/17/05  10:41pm

 #445687


Rmrasp
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  Message To: Ace13   In reference to Message Id: 445570


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

What about the tiny little silver guppies that are usually .10 each, or even cheaper? The lady at the pet store said they are not goldfish. Are they okay for my snake?



08/17/05  11:59pm

 #445715


Ace13
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  Message To: Rmrasp   In reference to Message Id: 445687


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

no even though they have a slighter lower amount of thaimanese they still have thiamin

if u go down farther on that link it also says how guppies and platies are not really good



08/18/05  12:26am

 #658100


Ophiophthalmos
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  Message To: Ace13   In reference to Message Id: 445570


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting.

Thiaminase is an enzyme. Enzymes can be denatured - destroyed - by cooking. I wonder if freezing can do that too?

I used to feed my northern watersnake frozen smelts - which are not in the list at all.

I think freezing a fish would probably denature the thiaminase as well as kill any dangerous parasites.

Goldfish and "ruby reds" are not recommended as food for fish-eating fish like big cichlids either.



02/19/06  11:41pm

 #658128


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Ophiophthalmos   In reference to Message Id: 658100


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

The nature of the enzyme is changed when kept under very hot or very cold temperatures. Freezing or boiling would change the shape of an enzyme and make it so the reaction in this case the breaking down of Thiamin to not take place.



02/19/06  11:54pm

 #676290


Ace14
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 658128


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

freezing and boiling really does not work it actually just makes it come out more from inside the cells that it is stored in



03/03/06  06:05pm

 #676344


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Ace14   In reference to Message Id: 676290


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

That is not true. The ideal temperature for an enzyme is body temperature. Any extremes changes the shape of the enzyme and causes it to no longer make the reaction happen. In this case the breaking down of thiamin. However boiling works better to change the enzyme than freezing.



03/03/06  06:35pm

 #676774


Ace14
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 676344


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

lol u need to get ur facts straight



03/04/06  12:09am

 #676780


Ace14
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 676344


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

freezing just makes the enzyme slow down and not be able to harm it does not destroy it it just makes it go dormid till it warms back up and cause more havoc

boiling can and will kill thiamanese but there is no chance of killin every bit which still leads to risks that i know im not willin to take and hope none of u would either

so get ur facts straight before tryin to tell me about watersnakes and their prey and how to make it safe



03/04/06  12:14am

 #677167


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Ace14   In reference to Message Id: 676774


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Really? Heres a link to info about enzymes pay special attention to the part about denaturing of an enzyme. Also an enzyme works well under a certain PH as well so in a dead fish the ph may change and also denature the enzyme. The simple truth is you should have learned about the nature of enzymes in 7th grade life science. You obviously didnít do any research and donít know your stuff. Here is the link I will gladly accept your apology.

Nature of an enzyme



03/04/06  12:11pm

 #677175


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 677167


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

You will notice in the link and any biology book that the denaturing of an enzyme is PERMANENT



03/04/06  12:16pm

 #677429


Ace14
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 677175


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

and if u notice in it it also says they are not killed they are just altered

and just because it is altered doesnt mean it doesnt have the destructive properties in it destroyed

also in my article youíll notice it also says about freezing so u wont be getting an apology



03/04/06  02:57pm

 #677458


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Ace14   In reference to Message Id: 677429


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Permanently altered smart one. You canít kill an enzyme! IT ISNíT ALIVE! You obviously donít know how enzymes work. An enzyme speeds up a chemical reaction. It uses a lock and key fit to lower the activation energy. When it is altered it changes the shape. It no longer fits the lock so it cannot lower the activation energy. An enzyme doesnt have destructive properties smart one. It speeds up the destructive chemical reaction. If it canít fit the lock it cannot speed up the destructive chemical reaction therefore it is permanently useless.


You are just making yourself sound like a fool. ENZYMES CANíT BE KILLED THEY ARE NOT ALIVE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You are arguing against something that has been scientifically proven! You might as well be arguing that Rattlesnakes have no venom and are harmless.



03/04/06  03:14pm

 #677502


Ace14
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 677458


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

i know a enzyme isnt alive u idiot lol

and it has to be to a certain temperature for a enzyme to be altered and nobody really knows what that is with thiamanese so dont be tryin to be all smart with me

im just goin on the care of the snake i dont care on the reaction time of a enzyme

so if u decide to convince ppl feeding their snakes frozen or boiled fish then dont blame me when u get blamed


im not goin anymore with this topic i dont want to be fightin with a little smart mouth



03/04/06  03:48pm

 #677525


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Ace14   In reference to Message Id: 677502


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Your last post made no sense. Good judgement to not argue with me especially since you are arguing against something that has been scientifically proven! Enough Said! If anything the temperature to alter thiaminase would be lower because it is found in a cold blooded organism. Please tell me what this is supposed to mean.

"so if u decide to convince ppl feeding their snakes frozen or boiled fish then dont blame me when u get blamed"

You sound like you are 7!



03/04/06  04:10pm

 #794765


Tru06
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 677525


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Both of you shut the hell up! I went to this forum to get a better understanding of water snake care, not to read a conversation of two nerds arguing!



05/20/06  06:05am

 #796040


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Tru06   In reference to Message Id: 794765


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

way to bring up a dead and buried post.



05/21/06  12:24am

 #801320


Beltane
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 796040


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn`t freezing on boiling the fish also destroy the much needed vitamins in it?



05/24/06  07:43am

 #801322


Beltane
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 796040


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn`t freezing or boiling the fish also destroy the much needed vitamins in it?



05/24/06  07:44am

 #802443


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Beltane   In reference to Message Id: 801322


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Very interesting idea Beltane. Although I am not sure if it is right or not. I thought about it and we cook most of our food before we eat it and I dont think that it changes the makeup of the food. Although it would destroy bacteria and enzymes in the animals body. We also freeze our food so Iím not to sure the impact of that on the nutritional content. In fact Iíve never really thought about it but you brought up a good point.



05/24/06  08:47pm

 #802745


Joshsnakeman
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 802443


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Boiling food does cause many of the nutrients to leave it. That is why when you boil something, the leftover water is usually not clear. All the nutrients are in it.



05/24/06  11:36pm

 #802799


Jack/tru06
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  Message To: Joshsnakeman   In reference to Message Id: 802745


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Thats right, boiling food does cause nutients to leave. Usually when man tries to eat food any way opposite than the way he was intended to (the natural way) he usually falls short of his potential health. This can be applied with animals. For example dogs in the wild dont get heart disease and arthritis but when given processed food under human supervision they do! So my opinion is, if your snake doesínt eat boiled or frozen fish in the wild, then donít feed them that way!



05/25/06  12:04am

 #803135


Orc Bow Man
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  Message To: Jack/tru06   In reference to Message Id: 802799


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I agree. I feed my Watersnakes only live minnows. Just find a fish that is thiaminase free when you feed your snakes.



05/25/06  10:34am

 #804829


Beltane
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  Message To: Orc Bow Man   In reference to Message Id: 803135


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

I usually add some nutribal and B1-vitamin to the fish, but still my snakes have had some vitamin-defiencies... The fish has usually been frozen. I have tried to boil the fish once, but my snakes didn`t eat it. Would it be okay to give pinkies to water snakes once a month? I think that could help but I`m not sure can water snakes eat mice.



05/26/06  10:47am

 #2175904


Alfreddd
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  Message To: Ace13   In reference to Message Id: 445570


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

hey guys i caught a baby broad banded water snake he has to be a couple inches long. ive tryed giving him a cricket but i read they dont rlly like them and i tryed lizards to but it was a fail. is it ok if i feed him regular fathead minnows i catch in my lake...... because there is thousands and i heard rosy reds arent to good for them. thanks



09/17/10  03:34pm

 #2176261


Pitbulllady
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  Message To: Ophiophthalmos   In reference to Message Id: 658100


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

To clarify some things-Smelts ARE high in Thiaminase, and therefore should NOT be fed to a snake. ANY fish which has been frozen, including those which do not contain Thiaminase, should be supplemented with a reptile vitamin powder containing Thiamin(Vitamin B complex), since freezing destroys this essential nutrient. Thiamin IS absolutely essential for life, and should NOT be confused with Thiaminase, which prevents its absorption by an animal’s tissues. Some "Silver-Sides" that are packaged and sold frozen for feeders are actually Smelts, including Hiakari brand, so Buyer Beware applies. San Fransisco brand sells Thiamin-fortified frozen REAL Silver-Sides, which are perfect for snake feeders.



09/19/10  07:46pm

 #2178582


Pitbulllady
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  Message To: Alfreddd   In reference to Message Id: 2175904


 ALL watersnake owners read this!!!!!!!!!!

Fat-Head Minnows ARE Rosy-Reds, just for the record. Two names, same fish. And yes, they are very high in Thiaminase and should be avoided. I have never seen or heard of any Water Snake eating either insects or lizards. I’ve seem a few babies that would eat earthworms, but most are exclusively fish and amphibian eaters, unless conditioned to eat rodents by scenting the food with fish. Guppies, Mosquito Fish(Gambusia) and Killifish are good, safe feeder fish for small Water Snakes, if you can’t get them to eat scented pinkies.



10/01/10  06:58pm


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