 |
Back to Venomous Snakes Forum Forums Home Members Area
Venomous Snakes Forum
| Member | Message | ||
|
StronglyKeeled View Profile |
Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Can anyone tell me what I need to do to cure him? Please respond. Thanks. |
||
| 10/20/09 10:16am |
|
||
|
JEFF QUARLES View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2086313 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Go to any farm store and buy a 100cc bottle of Penicillian and a 3cc suringe. With the needle on the suringe, suck out 1/4th a cc, take off the needle and then slide the suringe down the snakes throat squeezing the anti down. Do this for 4 days and its cured. |
||
| 10/20/09 11:32am |
|
||
|
StronglyKeeled View Profile |
Message To: JEFF QUARLES In reference to Message Id: 2086345 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
|
||
| 10/20/09 11:47am |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: JEFF QUARLES In reference to Message Id: 2086345 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Also, wouldn’t it be safer to use an injectabile antibiotic? Just my thoughts. |
||
| 10/20/09 01:31pm |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2086313 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
|
||
| 10/20/09 01:34pm |
|
||
|
StronglyKeeled View Profile |
Message To: Carmelita In reference to Message Id: 2086374 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Thanks for the concern. I have already considered possible causes and I think I’m pretty confident I know what it is. I read a book, "The Art of Keeping Snakes" a while back and decided to use their bioactive substrate system. This is where you use a soil like substrate and count on naturally occurring bacteria to break down waste and mimic an outdoor environment. You’re supposed to spot clean, and then mix any fecal residue into the substrate. Anyway, this is the system I’ve been using and I’m wondering if I haven’t been managing it properly? Perhaps there is too much harmful bacteria in the enclosure. Or perhaps the substrate is too moist, causing a fungal infection. Whatever the case I am going to go home today after work and empty the enclosure. The water bowl and other decorations will be sterilized in the oven, while the enclosure will be washed with diluted bleach water. After the cleaning is complete I am going to replace all of the substrate with Aspen shavings. This should provide a much more sterile environment, granted, it won’t be as pretty as live growing plants, but if it will help my snake live a longer healthier life I’m okay with that. What is your opinion? Do you feel I am taking all of the appropriate measures to ensure the well being of my snake? Do you have any suggestions for me? Thanks much for your input. |
||
| 10/20/09 01:42pm |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2086383 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
I do not want to say too much, as I stated earlier, I do not work with hots. I work strictly with boids (which are mostly tropical). I do not know what the humidity requirements are for a copperhead, but my first thought was that the bio-active substrate could provide too humid an environment. I do think it is a good idea to get rid of the substrate, though. I would use newspaper for now, until all is well, simply because there could be more going on than just mouth rot. I have a boa that has permanent scar tissue damage that will affect her breathing for the rest of her life, and she cannot tolerate any dust whatsoever, so she cannot use Aspen. I would wait until the snake is back to 100%, then switch to aspen and take it from there. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to go to a vet (do herp vets deal with hots?) I am not dissing Jeff’s remedy, I just think a vet would know best the course of action to take. Giving oral antibiotics to a venomous snake is not something I would try in my wildest dreams. Tubing the snake and giving an injection on the other hand, is. A "100cc bottle of Penicillin" is pretty vague. Is it intended for oral administration? I have given many injections over the years to boas and pythons, and never has it been penicillin. It could be a species thing.... I don’t know. I know Jeff typically knows his stuff, so maybe it is a species thing? Best of luck to you, and I do hope your snake makes a full recovery.  |
||
| 10/20/09 04:24pm |
|
||
|
StronglyKeeled View Profile |
Message To: Carmelita In reference to Message Id: 2086448 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Jeff, please respond about the penicillin. If it’s possible to give the snake an injection rather than oral ingestion I’d much rather do that. For tonight I’m going to tube him and swab his mouth with diluted hydrogen peroxide. I will go ahead and use newspaper until the snake has made a full recovery. Most of what I read about mouth rot said there would be a white discharge and other symptoms that I am not seeing. I am going to assume those symptoms are not present only because I caught this early. I pay a lot of attention to my snakes, so it’s not like this has been an un-noticed problem. Hopefully I caught it soon enough that there will not be any permanent damage to the bones or teeth. |
||
| 10/20/09 04:38pm |
|
||
|
JEFF QUARLES View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2086456 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
|
||
| 10/20/09 06:23pm |
|
||
|
RePtiLOVER View Profile |
Message To: JEFF QUARLES In reference to Message Id: 2086521 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
I agree it works on most reptiles, just not eastern coachwhips. Another thing you could do is peel off the scabbing, soak it in some tetracycline |
||
| 10/20/09 07:23pm |
|
||
|
JEFF QUARLES View Profile |
Message To: RePtiLOVER In reference to Message Id: 2086559 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
 |
||
| 10/21/09 05:37am |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: JEFF QUARLES In reference to Message Id: 2086786 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
|
||
| 10/21/09 08:12am |
|
||
|
JEFF QUARLES View Profile |
Message To: Carmelita In reference to Message Id: 2086813 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
|
||
| 10/22/09 12:33pm |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2086456 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
How are things going with the copperhead? Did you get his cage emptied out and his mouth cleaned up? |
||
| 10/22/09 10:59pm |
|
||
|
StronglyKeeled View Profile |
Message To: Carmelita In reference to Message Id: 2087719 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Yeah, I cleaned out the cage and sterilized everything. Everyone I ask about the penicillin has a different opinion about it. Some people are suggesting either injecting the penicillin into a mouse or just putting a feeding tube/syringe down the snake’s throat, but others are telling me injectable penicillin will not work if ingested because it will just be metabolized and rendered useless. I’m scared to inject the penicillin because I don’t want to risk puncturing an organ and I don’t know if it would work to just pull the skin up and inject directly under the skin. Doesn’t penicillin have to be injected into muscle tissue? This whole thing is all very confusing and I can’t get anyone to agree on one method, so for now I’ve given up on administering penicillin all together. I have been swabbing the mouth with diluted hydrogen peroxide and I’m going to start with Betadine today. There has been no improvement so far, but on the same token, it hasn’t gotten any worse. There are no new symptoms. I am getting ready to go to the pet store to get some Maracyn. It’s an anti-fungal/antibiotic for fish. I was told by a breeder I know that it works quite well for her frogs if they ever get any kind of infection. She will just dissolve the powder in a water bowl and let her frogs drink/soak in it. She is guaranteeing me it will not be harmful for my snake drink this stuff. So I am going to give it a shot. Here is a description of Maracyn: Quote: With B-complex vitamins. A broad-spectrum antibiotic used in the treatment of body fungus, fin and tail rot, popeye, gill disease, secondary infections and other gram-positive bacterial infections and fungal diseases. Active ingredient: erythromycin.
What do you think? I think it’s a great idea, and one I’m eager to try. |
||
| 10/23/09 11:00am |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2087872 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
I do tend to believe, however, that oral meds are oral meds, and injectible ones are to be injected. I cannot say for sure. The meds I have used have either been baytril, ceftazadine, or in the amiglide type group. All of those can be injected directly under the skin, in the front half of the body. Some of those have to be diluted, and some you have to alternate the side each time you inject. I don’t blame you for not wanting to inject anything, I would not do it myself, if not directed by a vet. You are probably not going to see improvements overnight. I would dilute the Betadine as well. If you can get your hands on some chorhexidine or nolvasan (same thing) and dilute that until it is just barely blue, that will work wonders. You can probably get that from a vet without bringing the animal in. If you buy a small quantity, it is not expensive. Last time I got some, the vet just used their big gallon bottle to fill an empty rubbing alcohol bottle and charged me like $10 or so, don’t remember, but that would be WAY more than you need. Maybe you can just buy a small bottle of it, if they have the small size, but some don’t. You can also apply polysporin after each cleaning. Is it possible to take a pic of the gums and post them? (please do not do this by yourself) I have to give you credit for swabbing the mouth, though, I would be a little nervous doing that on a hot, so please, be careful, and never rush. But since you seem comfortable doing so, you might as well get the best stuff to swab it with. Post pics if you can, please, so I can get a better idea what you are dealing with. Remember, we don’t know for sure if it is just mouth rot. Either way, diligent daily cleaning, and the new sterile environment are definitely steps in the right direction. |
||
| 10/23/09 11:19pm |
|
||
|
StronglyKeeled View Profile |
Message To: Carmelita In reference to Message Id: 2088070 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Quote: You are probably not going to see improvements overnight. I know :’( But I must say, I think the swelling is starting to go down a bit. Only time will tell. Quote: If you can get your hands on some chorhexidine or nolvasan (same thing) and dilute that until it is just barely blue, that will work wonders. You can probably get that from a vet without bringing the animal in. If you buy a small quantity, it is not expensive.
I will certainly look into that. Thanks for the suggestion. Quote: Is it possible to take a pic of the gums and post them? (please do not do this by yourself) lol, we’ll see. I don’t know about that. Quote: I have to give you credit for swabbing the mouth, though, I would be a little nervous doing that on a hot, so please, be careful, and never rush. Well, it’s certainly not something I wanted to do, but if one is going to bring an animal into their home it’s only fair to do anything you can to keep that animal healthy. Quote: But since you seem comfortable doing so, you might as well get the best stuff to swab it with. ROFL! Trust me, there is NOTHING comfortable about swabbing the mouth of a pit viper ;-) |
||
| 10/25/09 06:34pm |
|
||
|
Snakebuz View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2088561 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171407.htm put the http at the beginning. There is also a link to table on that page showing dosages for different reptiles. Most snakes I ran into with stomatitis was caused from a gram neg infection, more often than not Psuedomonas. The antibiotic you mentioned would not be effective against the gram negative infection, but it might help if it has a gram positive infection. Getting a culture done will let you know what you are dealing with. Amikacin and ampicillin make a good general catch all treatment if a culture is not done, the culture and screen is the best way to go though. Hope your sick guy pulls through. |
||
| 10/27/09 02:30pm |
|
||
|
StronglyKeeled View Profile |
Message To: Snakebuz In reference to Message Id: 2089069 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Quote: Haven’t seen it mentioned to you, you are probably well aware of it, but increasing the heat to as high a level as possible that will not stress your snake is one of the best ways to enable healing in a reptile.
Thanks, you’re right no one has actually told me to do that, but I do recall reading it somewhere in the past. The temps have been raised for about a week now, but thanks much for the advice. Quote: You could get a culturette from a local vet and swab the infected area, letting the vet send it off for culturing and sensitivity screening, and you can get a readout of what bacteria is present and have them do a screening for effective antibiotics.
That’s a fantastic idea! I just might do that. Thanks much for the great idea. Quote: Otherwise, you may find something to your liking in the merck vet manual at
://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171407.htm put the http at the beginning. There is also a link to table on that page showing dosages for different reptiles. I will have to check that out! Thanks a lot. You have been extremely helpful. Quote: Most snakes I ran into with stomatitis was caused from a gram neg infection, more often than not Psuedomonas. The antibiotic you mentioned would not be effective against the gram negative infection, but it might help if it has a gram positive infection.
Damn. Quote: Amikacin and ampicillin make a good general catch all treatment if a culture is not done
Thanks much. Good to know. Quote: Hope your sick guy pulls through.
Me too :’( |
||
| 10/28/09 09:31am |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: StronglyKeeled In reference to Message Id: 2089304 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
Please do keep us posted, I think you have a lot of people here rooting for the little guy |
||
| 10/28/09 10:33am |
|
||
|
Carmelita View Profile |
Message To: Carmelita In reference to Message Id: 2089312 Copperhead w/ Mouth Rot. HELP
|
||
| 11/17/09 10:58am |
|
