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 #1868506


WT NolaN
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 Venom glands removed

hey what do yall think about the web site that sells once venomous snakes but they had surgery to have their venom glands removed?



09/26/08  01:03am

 #1868513


Philodryas
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  Message To: WT NolaN   In reference to Message Id: 1868506


 Venom glands removed

The snakes are called "Venomoids" and the people performing the surgery should be shot and hung out in public. There are plenty of non-venomous snakes to choose from if you don’t want a venomous one.

Yes, as simple as that!



09/26/08  01:31am

 #1869254


Amphibiandude
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  Message To: Philodryas   In reference to Message Id: 1868513


 Venom glands removed

removeng the glands i painfull and can kill the snake most of the time and then the snake is usually going to die young and ie slowly and painfully i agree with philodryas



09/27/08  11:29am

 #1869786


Rebelyell83
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  Message To: Amphibiandude   In reference to Message Id: 1869254


 Venom glands removed

Quote:

removeng the glands i painfull and can kill the snake most of the time and then the snake is usually going to die young and ie slowly and painfully



not true


but anyway,IF the surgery is done properly,then i think its ok,but i would ONLY ever recomend if somebody buy one then go through venomoid inc,notrd vet,to much to go wrong



09/28/08  03:47am

 #1870487


Philodryas
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  Message To: Rebelyell83   In reference to Message Id: 1869786


 Venom glands removed

"IF the surgery is done properly,then i think its ok"

Why....WHY.....would it be okay to lobotomate a animals that is perfectly healthy? Why can’t people either take the time to learn how to handle hots or get a non-venomous snake? Is it becouse you want to look cool on pictures with you’r friends freehandling a cobra, gaboon or what ever??



09/29/08  03:26am

 #1870787


Occ1123
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  Message To: Philodryas   In reference to Message Id: 1870487


 Venom glands removed

I and I think the majority of the of the rest of the venomous community could not agree with you more.



09/29/08  04:07pm

 #1892719


Phoenixatrox
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  Message To: Philodryas   In reference to Message Id: 1868513


 Venomoid’s

I have a question to all you antivenomoid people! Please be an adult and respond to this question respectfully.

I don’t understand why everyone despises this surgical procedure, if its done by a licensed professional than whats the problem. Do we not cut off are pet dogs. horses, ect... balls to neuter them! Or how about declawing are cats because the owners don’t like there cats clawing the couch. Or even surgically removing a ferrets cent glands so it won’t smell. Why are all these surgical procedures O.K. and not venomoid’s, is that not hypocritical. There is no scientific proof that venomoids need there venom to digest there food or getting the procedure shortens there life span so don’t give me that reason unless you can prove it.

I don’t want to start a argument just a respectful debate.



11/03/08  09:49pm

 #1893260


Rebelyell83
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  Message To: Philodryas   In reference to Message Id: 1870487


 Venom glands removed

Quote:

Why....WHY.....would it be okay to lobotomate a animals that is perfectly healthy?



why is it ok for humans to dock ears and tails on dogs?,it has no purpose for the life of the animal,does it make them healthier?

heres a couple reasons why it would be acceptable:

what if someone is doing educational demonstartions with snakes,but due to state regulations,cant take a hot to a school or such,where the education of identifying a hot,could be a great thng for the kids to get,so they dont get bit by a water moccassin thinking tis a rat snake?,well.a venomoid would fit the bill perfectly,dont YOU think?

what about the person who goes through thier 1000 hours of training with hots,gets thier permits,has the caging set up to state safety specs,but due to living circumstances,cant get a full on hot?,should they be denied the pleasure of owning that species?,in some states to own a venomous and a venomoid,the regs are the exact same,so its not like you can walking the street with a cobra in your pocket or anything

just some food for thought



11/04/08  10:25pm

 #1946247


Indigo rattlers
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  Message To: WT NolaN   In reference to Message Id: 1868506


 Venom glands removed

too true too true taking out there venom glands is not the way god made them so i wouldn’t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



02/03/09  08:41pm

 #1946707


Flherp
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  Message To: Indigo rattlers   In reference to Message Id: 1946247


 Venom glands removed

God did not make them to live in little glass cages either, but most people do not have a problem with that. Albinos, morphs and intergrades/hybrids occur in the wild, but not in the numbers that are captive bred. Most things in the hobby are somewhat unnatural - so don’t depend on the naturalistic fallacy (natural = good) to support your opinion.



02/04/09  03:24pm

 #1947375


Tenten~
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  Message To: Flherp   In reference to Message Id: 1946707


 Venom glands removed

I’m only 14 and have never owned a venomous snake in my life but still don’t believe that it’s right to remove venom glands. Sure it may not hinder in their digestion process but that IS how they kill their prey. People don’t HAVE to use venomoids for teaching. They could easily put it in a secure cage and just have the students look at it inside of the cage. It is a lot less painful to the snake. In my opinion, venomoids are just ways for people to feel "better" than other people because they can play with dangerous animals.
~Adeline~



02/05/09  12:11pm

 #1947580


Rebelyell83
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  Message To: Tenten~   In reference to Message Id: 1947375


 Venom glands removed

Adeline,

in most instances,i do agree with you on your last comment,i think there are way to many people buying backwoods done venomoids,so they can own a cobra,but there are people who also just love the species,that get them to safely handle it,once i get my venomous permit,i wont get any venomoids either,more or less pointless,if i have to go through the same stuff to get either one,i might as well just get the real deal,can get 3 times as many venomous for the same price,lol

but i do think,for people in thier first few hours of venomous training,a venomoid would be helpful there,,although i used the real deal for my training begining,and will be using it all the way through,i advocate them for training useage,which,in terms,really makes me a hyprocrite,as i perosnally wont buy one or train with one



02/05/09  05:01pm

 #1948719


Snakeobsession
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  Message To: Rebelyell83   In reference to Message Id: 1947580


 Venom glands removed

whats the point of having a VENOMOUS snake if it doesnt have venom thats basically the fun of having that species of snake its cruel, painful and as somebody said before thats not how they evolved they are meant to have venom and i think humans should respect that. we have already done enough to our world to be taking away such an important thing to such an amazing animal, i dont agree with the procedure unless absoloutley necessary but when is that going to happen, please just leave the snake as it is, physically. Victoria



02/07/09  01:50pm

 #1949117


Rebelyell83
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  Message To: Snakeobsession   In reference to Message Id: 1948719


 Venom glands removed

cant say i’d ever heard handling hots described as fun before,,,,



02/08/09  08:55am

 #1949197


JEFF QUARLES
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  Message To: Rebelyell83   In reference to Message Id: 1869786


 Venom glands removed

What makes it not OK is venomous snakes use their venom as a digestion tool and don’t usually survive long as a venomoid, regardless of what you hear.



02/08/09  12:15pm

 #1949209


SoLA
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  Message To: JEFF QUARLES   In reference to Message Id: 1949197


 Venom glands removed

Maybe we can turn the venomoid surgery into a pointless tradition like the circumcision. Then it will be the snakes WITH venom glands getting looked at funny...so they will all want it done : )



02/08/09  12:34pm

 #1949216


Shiftylarry
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  Message To: SoLA   In reference to Message Id: 1949209


 Venom glands removed

Uhh...Not to be graphic or anything, but I don’t really think circumcision has had any life threatening consequences for me.



02/08/09  12:41pm

 #1949770


Flherp
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  Message To: Shiftylarry   In reference to Message Id: 1949216


 Venom glands removed

There is little evidence that the venom is absolutely necessary for digestion. There is little or no evidence that venomoid surgery, properly performed, leads to shortened lifespan. I think that the belief that those who would own venomoids wish to possess them simply to impress others reflects a lack of imagination rather than any defect in those who wish to possess an animal that has undergone venomoid surgery. Certainly there are those who would do so, however to infer that all those who would possess a venomoid have such an inclination. Most people who own venomous species have no access to antivenoms for the exotic species that they maintain. They depend upon zoos and research institutions to provide the medication to them in the event of a bite. If they were to have a venomoid, if the surgery were properly perfomed would have no or a reduced venom yield. Perhaps this would lead to a better outcome, without depending on the limited resources of others. Maybe...



02/09/09  10:37am

 #1949860


Wild "J"
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  Message To: Flherp   In reference to Message Id: 1949770


 Venom glands removed

venomous snakes do relay on the venom to start breaking down the animal before it even starts digesting. I think if you want a none venomous species then get one, if not don’t change the animal for your benefit, the snakes go threw enough in captivity and they don’t need this to happen to them too.



02/09/09  12:58pm

 #1949926


JEFF QUARLES
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  Message To: Flherp   In reference to Message Id: 1949770


 Venom glands removed

It is quite obvious that you like to argue but I have to say that in this too, you don’t know what the HELLLL your talking about Flherp! I don’t know where you get your info from but it sounds repeated to me. I think you think you know science but you are either reading outdated material or very biased crap! First try and understand the two types of stomachs found in the Venomous and nonvenomous snakes. Very different. Most venomous snakes can’t digest near the vast prey that a common rat snake can. That is just one example .



02/09/09  03:06pm

 #1950430


Rebelyell83
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  Message To: JEFF QUARLES   In reference to Message Id: 1949926


 Venom glands removed

i know,that SOME venoms help with digestion(stiletto being one of which),but do ALL venoms do this?,this is more for Sola and Jeff,as venomoid inc,feeds thier Frozen thawed,would say a cobra venomoid,hae issues with the digestion,as well as,a rattle snake for example(the different kinds of veoms escape me at the moment,but i do some rattle snakes,have the venom that cause the blood to become one big clot and so on,,i do know the proper terms,,but for some reason thier not coming to mind,,will get back to you later with them)



02/10/09  01:51pm

 #1950733


Flherp
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  Message To: Rebelyell83   In reference to Message Id: 1950430


 Venom glands removed

I think what I wrote was that venom was not an absolute necessity for digestion, it does facilitate digestion. The two are not mutually exclusive ideas. Abstracts for articles concerning venom and digestion:
https://ritdml.rit.edu/dspace/handle/1850/2503
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1446536
http://www.sicb.org/meetings/2009/schedule/abstractdetails.php3?id=1155
http://comp.uark.edu/~mmccue/PDFs/venomAbs.pdf

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1651279&pageindex=1 (this article is from 1906)

Venom is also useful for locating prey after a strike (inconclusive as to the need for venom for digestion):
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/animalphysiology/websites/2008/Eskew/PreyEffects.htm

May assist in digesting prey at low temperatures (see Bryan Stuart):
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/agcomm/magazine/winter02/zero.htm

Meter-dosing in snakes:
http://www.llu.edu/llu/faculty/whayes/documents/1995_hayes_et_al._copeia_np_rattlesnakes_meter_venom.pdf

More interesting stuff:
http://www.biochemj.org/bj/377/0215/bj3770215.htm
from the above:
The acidic PLA2s in the viper venoms have, in general, evolved more isoforms than the basic PLA2s [12,13]. Whether the hydrolytic activities of acidic venom PLA2s contribute to the digestion of preys [35] is not clear, and have been shown to be inhibitors of platelet aggregation. The presence of multiple isoforms of T. stejnegeri acidic PLA2s is probably an adaptation to diverse preys with different platelet properties [13].

As to longevity, I think you would be hard pressed to prove that the surgery yields an animal with a shortened lifespan. What we encounter is a lack of objective data, and a wealth of anecdotal information. Anecdotes do not prove general principles as they are isolated, non-reproducible events. The brutal truth is that many captive animals do not live long lives. Many animals in the wild also live short lives, so that is a wash. I do not think that I have a bias one way or the other as to the ethics of possessing or producing venomoids. I don’t own any, I would not encourage the purchase of such animals as an alternative to proper and safe handling, I do not consider EVERY person who would purchase such an animal to be an idiot, I certainly have reservations about the process (it should be performed with anesthesia and analgesia, if it is to be performed at all), etc.

We all suffer from cognitive errors in which we believe what we wish to be true and look for confirmation of these beliefs. I am rather comfortable with a bit of doubt and uncertainty, I find that there is a dearth of absolutes and a surfeit of ideas and beliefs which should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.



02/10/09  10:35pm

 #1963941


Flherp
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  Message To: Flherp   In reference to Message Id: 1950733


 Venom glands removed

Two more abstracts concerning venom-aided digestion (or lack thereof):

Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2009 Apr;152(4):579- 85

Prey envenomation does not improve digestive performance in Taiwanese pit vipers (Trimeresurus gracilis and T. stejnegeri stejnegeri).
Chu CW, Tsai TS, Tsai IH, Lin YS, Tu MC.
Department of Life Science, National Taiwan University, Taipei, Taiwan.

It has been a common belief that snake venom may help in the digestion of its prey, although direct examples and supporting evidence have not been sufficient. To address this, the present study examined whether preinjecting natural amounts of pit viper venom into experimental mice may accelerate their digestion by the snakes or gain energy benefit as compared to the control without the envenomation. Live adults of two Asian pit viper species Trimeresurus gracilis and T. stejnegeri stejnegeri, which inhabit the cold and warm environment respectively, were the subjects studied herein. A natural dose of 1.2 mg of each of the pit viper venom in phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) was injected into the mouse (about 10% of the snake mass) before it was being fed to the same species of vipers, while the pit vipers in control group were given mouse injected with sterile PBS. The snakes were kept at 14 degrees C or 24 degrees C, and parameters of gut passage time, costs of digestion, and/or digestive efficiency were measured. The results did not support the hypotheses that envenomation facilitates prey digestion. The venom in fact caused longer first defecation time and lower assimilation energy at 14 degrees C. Besides, the time to reach the oxygen consumption peak, and the first defecation time of T. s. stejnegeri were longer than that of T. gracilis.

Titre du document / Document title
Prey envenomation does not improve digestive performance in western diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus atrox)
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
MCCUE Marshall D. ;
Résumé / Abstract
Although the toxic properties of snake venoms have been recognized throughout history, very little is known about the adaptive significance of these powerful mixtures. This study examined the popular hypothesis that prey envenomation enhances digestion by influencing the energetic costs of digestion and assimilation, gut passage time, and apparent assimilation efficiency (ASSIM) in western diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus atrox), a species whose venom is recognized for its comparatively high proteolytic activities. A complete randomized block design allowed repeated measures of specific dynamic action and gut passage time to be measured in eight snakes ingesting four feeding treatments (i.e., artificially envenomated live mice, artificially envenomated prekilled mice, saline injected live mice, and saline injected prekilled mice). A second experiment measured ASSIM in eight snakes ingesting a series of six artificially envenomated or six saline injected mice meals over an 8-week period. Contrary to expectations, the results of both these experiments revealed that envenomation had no significant influence on any of the measured digestive performance variables. Gut passage time averaged 6 days and ASSIM averaged 79.1%. Twenty-one hours following ingestion, postprandial metabolic rates exhibited factorial increases that averaged 3.9-fold greater than resting metabolic rate. Specific dynamic action lasted on average 88 hr and accounted for 26% of the total ingested energy. The results of this study reinforce the need to systematically examine the potential adaptive advantages that venoms confer on the snakes that produce them.
Revue / Journal Title
Journal of experimental zoology. Part A. Ecological genetics and physiology ISSN 1932-5223
Source / Source
2007, vol. 307, no10, pp. 568-577 [10 page(s) (article)]



03/06/09  07:11am

 #1964147


Audio
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  Message To: Flherp   In reference to Message Id: 1963941


 Venom glands removed

The only reasons there are to get a venomous snake’s venom removed is so you can have a title or a snake that looks a certain way. You’re not caring for them as much as you’re showing them off.



03/06/09  04:09pm

 #1964497


Flherp
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  Message To: Audio   In reference to Message Id: 1964147


 Venom glands removed

Is it possible that there might be other reasons to obtain a venomoid than showing off? And I must wonder what title you might be endowed with if you were to have a venomoid? There are those who wish to enhance their status by having venomous reptiles, as they are considered animals for the advanced keeper. That also qualifies as showing off. They may also seek to be known as venomous keepers by a wider group of enthusiasts as it lends some cache. Does this mean that all venomous keepers seek only these two things? Is it possible that there are other reasons that may have escaped your imagination?



03/07/09  10:08am

 #1964505


JEFF QUARLES
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  Message To: Flherp   In reference to Message Id: 1964497


 Venom glands removed

Some of the major zoos these days keep only venomoids for insurance reasons. People educating the public aslo go this route. That is the only circumstance where I would see it as ok.



03/07/09  10:38am

 #1965179


SoLA
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  Message To: JEFF QUARLES   In reference to Message Id: 1964505


 Venom glands removed

Flherp, I think both studies seem to be a good start on finding the insignificant roll of venom in the digestive process for those species, but there are still quite a few controls not examined. Snake behavior being one of them.

While a constant temperature is a good control in itself with an extotherm, and it shows its own line of "proof," we need to also examine that the snake would naturally seek different temperatures within a range if provided...and these studies do not examine this at all.

Now if we are using this to justify the practice of venomoid snakes in captivity, we then have the proof in the results given their set temperature zones, and we are certainly on track of proving something useful to us.

Nice post.

But for the topic in general, I am all about control here (as you can tell from my post I hope), and we can control situations in education where venomous snakes are used safely. We should be pushing this route to insurance companies because any surgery is undoubtedly some detriment to the animal.



03/08/09  08:01pm

 #1965241


Flherp
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  Message To: SoLA   In reference to Message Id: 1965179


 Venom glands removed

Actually there are several studies listed in a previous post that indicate venom facilitates digestion at lower temperatures. It is not an absolute neccesity for digestion. The behavior of the snake is not in question, the anti-venomoid premise is that venomous snakes require venom for digestion, and I think that this has been shown to be untrue. Mainly as the snakes that have been studied have venoms that are proteolytic, and would be more likely to facilitate digestion than those with no enzymatic activity. Nor is this an attempt to justify venomoids through the argument that venom is not neccesary for digestion, that in itself would be insufficient to demonstrate the validity of this view.

It has yet to be demonstrated that venomoid surgery (properly performed) is detrimental to the animal’s health. That would require further investigation.

When dealing with living things, control is not always guaranteed. We cannot control every circumstance, behavior, response, event, etc. We can utilize engineering and behavioral (our behavior) controls, however we will never gain control over every factor in every circumstance. We have a name for unplanned events - accidents.



03/08/09  09:52pm

 #1965248


SoLA
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  Message To: Flherp   In reference to Message Id: 1965241


 Venom glands removed

By detriment, I mean mainly short term. It is without a doubt there is a risk to the animals health (infection, not waking from surgery, other mistakes/adversives). The results of a successful surgery might not be detrimental to the animals health, but a surgery in general will always be something negative...even if it is only pain to the animal. It is not necessary.

A venomoid surgery would be an unnecessary short cut. Safe handling practices minimize adversives.

My comment on behavior was also to point out that there are effects to the snake that are not being questioned and studied. While I would agree it would likely be minimal, it isn’t measured.



03/08/09  10:08pm

 #1965362


Flherp
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  Message To: SoLA   In reference to Message Id: 1965248


 Venom glands removed

If coupled with safe handling practices, venomoid surgery adds an additional layer of safety, don’t you think. Handlers do make mistakes. An informal survey of those bitten indicates that many bites occur during routine tasks - due to loss of concentration, rushing, distraction, fatigue, etc. These are human behaviors that we can control, but as in most situations that cause us problems we rationalize performing these routine tasks when we should most likely take a pass.

I would consider a symptomatic bite to a keeper to be an adverse outcome. I would also caution keepers to develop safety procedures and then adhere to them. However, I would not fault an individual who chose to keep venomoids to provide an additional margin of error. This does not mean that I condone free-handling or other such behaviors, merely that I can see this procedure used in circumstances other than those of showing off.



03/09/09  07:09am

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