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 #2302083


Zsoccerdude17
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 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

I will be posting pictures of my Uro tonight, but it has now been 2 years that I have gone without UVB with him and he seems to be doing great! I know its a touchy subject but I have had no issues. He has grown alot since I first picked him up at the pet store two years ago ( I will post some original pictures of when I got him as well) Just curious how other non UVB raisers have been doing?? Ive been raising him as per Doug from Deer Fern Farms instructions on their site. Also he is far too big for his cage now, and I must build him a new custom enclosure. Any advice?? Ive read the Wiki and such and I think I will be going the 5x2x2 route. Any help, or advice appreciated! Pics to come tonight!



11/04/13  03:54pm

 #2302109


Rtl402
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302083


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

If you are going by Doug Dix care sheet you SHOULD be using UVB. Which you should be doing anyway. You are doing more harm then good with your experiment. UVB is the reason why they can fully break down and digest their food. You are shortening the life span of your uro and taking too many chances of impaction and kidney failure and other issues



11/05/13  09:43am

 #2302112


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: Rtl402   In reference to Message Id: 2302109


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

Im going based off this http://www.deerfernfarms.com/Uromastyx_Care.htm "We spend 4 years rearing half each year’s offspring under UVB lights and half on non-UV lights but with D3 supplementation in the food and tracked their growth rates. Those without exposure to UV bulbs did every bit as well as those reared under Mercury Vapor bulbs. When we noticed our Chuckwallas in particular consistently refused to bask under the Mercury Vapor bulbs in 2009, we decided to finally pull all the UV bulbs in the building and replace them with high quality (yet inexpensive) clear white Infra-Red bulbs. We’ve had no signs of hypo or hyper D3 issues and have been happy with the decision" Where do you see him suggesting using UVB? From my understanding he was making the point that UVB lighting from false sources are garbage at best, and that he has been raising them without it for years without any issue? I am open to learning but thats the way I understood it. Its been two years for me with no issues, I would have grabbed a pic last night but he had built himself a new burro and I couldnt and did not want to force him out.



11/05/13  10:48am

 #2302115


UROKEEPER
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302083


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

Quote:

From my understanding he was making the point that UVB lighting from false sources are garbage at best



You misunderstood him. he said that his chuckwallas refused to bask under a certain type of MV bulb. Some on the market back then and even now could be potentially dangerous due to certain manufacturers trying to save a buck and not testing their product. There are quite a few good quality mv’s and mh’s as well as several linear fluorescent tubes available not just quality of material but the quality of visible and non visible light. Some like the MH have a uvb/uvi ratio much like the sun and I can say that all my animals seek out the UV. All my uro’s have multiple basking sites some with uv and other basking sites without and they all prefer the UV. they frequent both to regulate their bodies but they spend most of their time under the UV. both basking sites with and without uv are the same surface temperatures give or take a degree or two

Quote:

it has now been 2 years that I have gone without UVB with him and he seems to be doing great! I know its a touchy subject but I have had no issues.



seems to be doing great? do you think that 2 years is long enough to say I have had no issues? did you know that supplemental (man made) vit d is one of the vitamins that a uro can’t regulate on their own? man made vit d3 can become extremely toxic if overfed. It is one thing for Dix to try and make an educated guess on dosage but again it is just a guess. It is another thing altogether when inexperienced keepers try and make their own guess. do we really want to play doctor and guess? UV light comes from the sun shouldn’t we try and mimic this with quality lighting in the correct ratio,wavelengths and intensity?

Did you know that metabolic bone disease is the absolute lowest a uro can get? A uro could have a calcium deficiency and show no signs of illness.

The safest and healthiest way to raise a uro is through a good calcium rich,high fiber diet with little to no supplementation with high quality uv lighting with multiple/secondary non uv basking areas. that way the uro can metabolize the calcium and convert vit d into vit d3 in their skin at their own pace without any threat of toxicity. There are many psychological as well as physical benefits to quality UV lighting.



11/05/13  12:26pm

 #2302117


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: UROKEEPER   In reference to Message Id: 2302115


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

Im just curious as to how Doug and his reptiles have done so well without it if its absolutely necessary. When he wrote the Article that was after four years. He hasnt added anything since then. Why would a very skilled keeper recommend such a style of raising Uro’s to other novice keepers if it had such high risks? That would be totally irresponsible. I’m all for trying UV B from say a mega Ray, not sure what supplementation to go with tho. The only thing he seems to like to eat is Bok Choy. But with the Mega Ray, according to their site, the best rays are within 12" and usable rays up to 20". My enclosure will be 24" high with a hutch on top for the lighting. How is the UVB going to even be effective at the range??



11/05/13  01:28pm

 #2302118


UROKEEPER
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302117


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

He never said "they have done so well" he just said he did not notice a difference in growth rates. I’m not sure if he recommends he states his own experience and having dozens of cages it is probably not cost effective as well.

"My enclosure will be 24" high with a hutch on top for the lighting. How is the UVB going to even be effective at the range??"

I have multiple cages at the 24" mark and I also have 48" high and I have used both Mega Ray MV’s and MH’s with readings on the 6.2 and 6.5 solarmeter similar to natural sunlight. I have since converted all my cages to MH. The 160 watt Mega Ray MV should be at 18-24" minimum. You don’t want to put it closer than that. It is very easy to build up a basking area as needed. I could post several examples of lighting and distances I use but I’m off to work







11/05/13  01:46pm

 #2302119


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: UROKEEPER   In reference to Message Id: 2302118


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

Im glad you took my comments and questions as me trying to learn rather than fight. I am a new keeper, and Deer Fern Farms page was the best I could find for info. I was skeptical about going no UVB but who am I to argue with a professional LOOOOOOOONG time breeder. I think I will switch to using a Megay Ray in Conjunction with a Basking Lamp on this new setup and see how it goes. What supplementation should I be going with when I make the switch?? Right now I have two large basking bulbs on one end of a 40 gallon breeder tank and nothing on the other, then I put his red light over wherever he is sleeping at night. I just cant get him to eat anyother green than bok choy, Not sure why that is. He loves orange lentils and the bean soup mix tho.



11/05/13  01:58pm

 #2302120


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302119


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

And I took the 18" and 20" amounts right from Reptile UV’s website. Thats why I’m skeptical on it.



11/05/13  01:59pm

 #2302139


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302120


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

So I will be building a 5x2x2. That would make this bulb a little much correct http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-sb-275-watt-self-ballasted-flood-uvb-lamp.php ?? I assume they mean 24" minimum being from the face of the bulb to the basking area correct? Would it be wiser to use this bulb and go with a 5x2x3 ? This would also make it easier to do some more custom lighting controls and such uptop. Thoughts?



11/06/13  11:31am

 #2302140


UROKEEPER
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302139


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

I would avoid the 275 watt MR’s for such a small cage. the radiation from these are extremely strong.... tooo intense for a 5x2 it will also be too hot. I know because I have tested these lamps



11/06/13  11:52am

 #2302142


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: UROKEEPER   In reference to Message Id: 2302140


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

160 Watt should be sufficient than? http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-sb-160-watt-self-ballasted-flood-uvb-lamp.php



11/06/13  12:02pm

 #2302144


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302142


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

And how strong of a basking bulb should I use in conjunction with it, and what are some of the brands to use or stay away from. I think Im using two exo terra intense basking spot lights right now cant remember the wattage but last I checked with the Infrared IT was around 105 in the basking area, If I remember correctly.



11/06/13  12:07pm

 #2302148


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302144


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

Also, I will be getting the Mega Ray for his enclosure I’m building, but until then is there a bulb I can pick up at the local pet smart that I can use in conjunction with the exo terra basking bulb ( its in a twin lamp enclosed fixture) to start getting him some UVB now. And what supplement should I move him too. I am currently using Repashy Super Cal HyD and Super Veggie Rotating every day. This is what is instructed from Deer Fern Farms website.



11/06/13  02:12pm

 #2302149


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302148


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

And who am I suppose to believe when this comes from a well known and long time breeder such as Doug

"UV Bulbs vs Standard Bulbs.
Two types of UV light rays are utilized by reptiles. In theory UVA moderates the circadian rhythm and innate behavioral drives in reptiles (helps set their biological clocks through the changing season and stimulates feeding/breeding responses). Reptiles in the wild use UVB rays to convert pre-vitamin D in their skin into active vitamin D3 which is then used in regulating the absorption and metabolic deposition of calcium. Unfortunately UV from incoming sunlight will not penetrate normal window or aquarium glass nor even window screen. Thus many reptile keepers seek to supply these rays artificially. The problem is normal incandescent light bulbs don’t produce UV rays and most specialty bulbs claiming to produce them produce far too little to be biologically useful.


In practice, activated vitamin D3 can simply be added to the diet, thus avoiding the need for exposure to UVB rays. We have successfully reared innumerable reptiles over multiple generations using only dietary vitamin D3.



We use both Veggie Dust and Miner-ALL indoor version supplements to fulfill that need. Still, supplying at least some UVB / UVA exposure has always seemed to be a good idea where practical. Unfortunately most of the bulbs we’ve tested are either short-lived or produce far too little UVB to be biologically useful. The exception has been the Westron bulb, currently marketed by T-Rex and Reptile-UV as the MegaRay UVB bulb. This is the only bulb on the market that has been proven to produce measurable levels of vitamin D3 synthesis in the skin of reptiles. We used this bulb in-house for several years - but in comparing notes on pens with these bulbs and those without, we fail to see a measurable benefit to the bulbs. In fact, we’ve noticed our Uromastyx and rock iguanas seem to generally refrain from basking under these bulbs unless really cold. When offered the choice of basking sites heated by a UVB bulb or a clear white Infra-Red bulb, they almost always choose the Infra-Red. That coupled with increasing data suggesting many UVB bulbs are actually detrimental to the health of reptiles has led us to pull them from our pens and from our supplies offerings. Our animals are avoiding them for a reason, and since we haven’t seen any benefit, we can no longer recommend them."



Here he is saying he has had many successful rearing’s, as I stated before.



11/06/13  02:22pm

 #2302150


Zsoccerdude17
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302149


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

I have now personally, through email, spoken to Doug. I know feel much better about my decisions and way of doing things. And have gotten some ideas from him to ease my mind on things regarding UVB.



11/06/13  03:14pm

 #2302179


UROKEEPER
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  Message To: Zsoccerdude17   In reference to Message Id: 2302150


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

I guess you have all the answers then



11/08/13  02:11am

 #2302338


Herpman112
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  Message To: UROKEEPER   In reference to Message Id: 2302179


 2 Years no uvb, New enclosure

I have been away for a while but have been keeping my uros now for about 6 years or so, (reptiles for over 20) i have banded, ornates, nigerians, moroccans and also keep blue tongue skinks. I gave up using MVB bulbs years ago. I would never say that MVB is useless, but i gave up using it for several reasons. They are difficult to use in tanks that are appropriate for room sizes etc, having a tank 24" tall for an animal that never leaves the ground (or rarely, although ornates love to climb) is a waste of space. They tend not to have a very long life when used for 13 hours per day (unless you have them auto on and off during the day and even then they have a habit of breaking off between the glass and the connection portion) they are very expensive, you can’t dim them, and the animals as a rule will only sit under them for very short periods of time (my experieince if you only use the mvb, (if you use both mvb and spot they will but more for the heat of the spot) I have used Deer Ferns method for 5 years with good sucess, my animals are all healthy, eat well, active, good color etc. He does in fact say "While many if not most sites still recommend the use of a UVB producing Mercury Vapor basking bulb, after many years of trials, we no longer feel these are a good choice for your reptile" " Many of us now choose to simply add vit. D3 to the diet and dispense with the bulbs" "We’ve had no signs of hypo or hyper D3 issues and have been happy with the decision"

I will say that in the summer all of my animlas get exposure to the sun outside for a bit each week, but otherwise i supplement with D3, multivitamins, repashy veggie dust, mazuri pellets, and also juvinille iguana pellets as a snack, no bugs at all ever. I keep them on millet, I feed escarole, endive, dandilion, bok choy, spring mix, assorted rose pedals in the summer, assorted leafed herbs etc. I brumate all my pairs no matter the age. The challange is as much as one can suggest that not using MVB may be creating long term harm to the animal without knowing for certain suggests that the same argument could be used for the non use of MVB and it having no ill effects at all (not sure that came out right, hope so) most cases of metabolic bone disease or other i have seen over the years could also be explained away by the rest of the husbandry practices or lack thereof. Poor food choices, no supplements, wrong supplements, not enough space in the tank to walk about, not enough things in the tank to keep the animal engaged etc.

I think if Doug had serious concerns with his methods he would post them, and certainly not advocate the ones he does on his site, but that aside, it has worked for me and my animals and i cannot see ever going back to the MVB bulbs with mine.

This is only my exeperieince, its important to note that.



11/20/13  05:09pm


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