#22419

 Substrate

Would it be o.k. if you use newspaper for the substrate its whole life? thanks amc

 #22590

 Substrate

Many people use newspaper as substrates for their reptiles. Just make sure it is black and white print paper. Some you can use color, but it depends upon what the ink is made of. You can call up your paper and ask what their color ink is made of. PE

 #22607

 Substrate

I would recomend using Repti Bark as a substrate as oppose to newspaper. Repti Bark is cheap and it comes in big bags. It also looks nice within the cage.

 #22624

 Substrate

Repti-bark is for use for cages that require humidity such as an iguanas, chams, etc...in which I would use cypress mulch any way. PE

 #22648

 Substrate

As I said before, if there is no moisture to absorb, the repti bark is just fine. It is also recomended for Uros by professionals on some sites. But yes, mulch is decent to.

 #22660

 Substrate

I put crushed walnut shells by Desert Blend in my tank over a month ago for my first ever mali. The product was recommended by a lizard owner and also someone on the web. I then read all these horror stories about the product. I’ve seen Pogo nibbling on the shells but then I’ve seen it in its stools. It’s obviously moving through its system. I’ve also been watching for blood in its stools just in case the sharp edges of the shells cut its inside but so far, no problems there. We can’t use bark or any kinds of tree related products as we have severe allergy in the house. I feel pretty comfortable with the substrate we’re using. Do you have any opinions on this product from personal experience?

 #22689

 Substrate

Newspaper or pebbles of some sort may be the best for you. They are easy to clean and handle. Further if they are big enough your lizard most likely will not swallow them.

 #22741

 Substrate

o.k. yhank you i think ill use newspaper does anyone know what is in the Orlando Sentinel ink because if its o.k. to put in the cage ill use that to save money.....thanks everyone. or would it be better to use repie-carpet (dont know what its called) whould that be safer? because im scared to use sand or other materials because my uro might swolow it.....

 #22903

 Substrate

dont use walnut. Despite what they say on packaging it turns out to be very very abd for your uro. It can cut their bellies and tear up their intestinal lining. People that use it find their uros poop with blood in it cause by stomach and intestinal bleeding. If you can afford alfafa on a regular basis that is very good. I personally use calci-sand but i plan on changing it out soon as having it too long isnt supposed ot be a good thing.

 #22938

 Substrate

What are you going to change to? Alfalfa or something more affordable?

 #23175

 Substrate

I hate the issue of substrate. I know everyone says don’t use sand, well at least most of the people in this forum do, but I have never had any problems with it. Do you think your mali’s ancestors were running around on repti-bark and alf-alfa in Africa? And, as far as ingestion goes, if you put the food in a BOWL it won’t be necessary for the little guy to come in contact with the sand. And, okay, so he ingests a little sand which isn’t good, right? Well, at least he’ll be okay... but if he happens to get a little piece of bark inside of him, he’s in big trouble. I have read the good and the bad about substrates and you know what, there are bad and good things about every one of them and I think you all know that. And as you all know, mali’s love to dig, so I am not about to keep him from that. I am sorry if I sound rude, but a certain person on the forum seems to tell everyone they’re wrong about everything all the time and I don’t appreciate it what so ever. When owning and caring for any reptile, there is never one right answer or way to do things...you pretty much use your best judgement along with the knowledge of them and keep and eye on him. So, if you use sand...or any substrate for that matter, and are concerned about ingestion, just keep an eye out for the little guys poop, and you’ll know if there are any problems going on.

 #23186

 Substrate

The issue of substrate drives most people crazy. It drove me crazy for a while too. I am anti-sand(I even hate the beach), but I have tried it in the past, there were many reason I stopped using it. I definately think sand looks nice, although I hated sand buried deep in my carpets. I think reptiles definately would ingest less if fed outside their cage or their food never hit the sand and accidently allow the reptile to comsume some sand. I’m not sure if I am the certain person your speaking of, but your uro is only 2 years old. What happens if your wrong and sand is building up..and 6-7 years down the road your uro dies from this? You would never know if there is sand building up inside your uro, sand in feces only shows they are ingesting it, but if the sand starts impacting, you will never see this. The substrates from the mali’s homeland isn’t the same as the sand substrates you are buying in a store. Alfalfa pellets may have draw backs as far as smell and molds if not kept dry, but it is digestable. Wheat bran is also digestable, but has some minor preperation draw backs like freezing the bran. Sand and walnut shells are not digestable. If you ever got play sand in your eyes you will know that it will scratch your eye up pretty good, this is about the same stuff your giving your uro to put through its intestines. I know quite a few people who are also switching to bird seeds such as finch seeds. Granted...I don’t believe seeds are digestable either because they were design to be fertalized and distributed all in one shot by other animals, so being that nature set that one up...I’m thinking that small seeds would actually pass though the intestines alot easier then sand. So what it comes down to is digestable substrates vs. undigestable substrates. The whole "use sand" routine dates back quite a few years around the same time you were suppose to feed your iguana monkey chow and cat food(which you don’t want to do). I totally respect your opinion on using sand and your husbandry methods...there certainly isn’t a huge standard on that to follow. I hope I did not offend you with my comments. Just top off my post...I always believe better safe then sorry. PE

 #23406

 Substrate

If allergy is a problem, perhaps consider paper towels. Go to deerfernfarms.com and log on there douglas dix He will be most helpful to you. But in the mean time, get that crushed walnut shell OUTTA there. By the time you start seeing the problem, it will be too late to help the poor thing.

 #23424

 Substrate

thanks everyone i think i might use sand.....is there a cheep way for doctors to see in a uro to see if its eatting sand because like a month after i put sand in i thought of bringing it to the docs. is that a good idea? but im young and have to pay for all of this myself. so it all has to be cheep. and is $100.00 to much for a juvenile? thanks amc

 #23537

 Substrate

Juvenile what? Mali vs Ornate....two very different price points! As for the sand...I would rather err on the safe side as impaction is the leading cause of death in captive Uro’s and if you don’t have a lot of vet money...you may want to stay away from sand. Just a thought

 #23616

 Substrate

its a mali im gettin!

 #23790

 Substrate

Hi AMC, It is Joan. I would try to negociate on the price of $100.00 for the Mali. They run about $40.00-$80.00 depending what size, color, and whether they are captive bred or wild caught. Try Scales.com or Deerfernfarms.com to give you some price info. and help you get a good pet. I do not want to see you pay too much for the Mali. Also I have gone to seed for bedding for my Uros. seems to work well and seems safer for their breed. Let me know what happens. Spikey and Buddy.

 #23919

 Substrate

For the seeds what brand is being used?

 #24463

 Substrate

I am getting some millet seed in bulk form a pet shop locally. It is clear of any bugs fresh each week no sunflowers seeds and seems to work well. Uros. crack the seed if they are going to eat it, but so far the veggies are the main menu items w/ split peas and babyfood fruit.If they do intake the seed I don’t feel i will have to worry about impactions.I do freeze the seed and keep it there until used. It is also great for burrowing in.

 #25867

 Substrate

yea... i use calcisand as a substrate. he only ingests some when he goes after a cricket or mealworm. i use a bowl for his food which is also an advantage i think because the sand will dry out the food fast. the sand is what they use in the wild right? it cant be that harmful if you think about it. and personally i would suggest papertowels over newspaper but maybe thats just me

 #25914

 Substrate

I think sand is too risky for uros, I use this substrate called desert blend - lizard litter, and it looks just like sand but it is actually little crushed up walnut shells. It isn’t as dangerous as sand!

 #25951

 Substrate

i keep mine on bird seed (minus the sunflower seeds). it’s easily digested and it’s good for them. better than walnut and sand. i had my mali’s on that desert blend stuff and one of mine became impacted. i put the food in the dish; but we all know how they like to dig. i guess they were kicking it up into the food dish? it sucked!!!

 #25955

 Substrate

I agree with Coldbloodedangel, crushed walnut is also known to cause impaction...in fact if you read the bag it claims it passes through the digestive system easily...meaning it won’t be digested...although it may not scratch up your reptile’s intestines like sand...it can still cause impaction. I know a couple of people who have been using bird seed. One friend uses it for his collard lizards since they were babies, and he has not had any problems with it yet. Coldblooded...what bird seed do you use? I been looking at getting some for my reptiles instead of using newspaper. My friend uses finch seeds...I just want to get an idea of what others are using. Thanks, PE

 #26613

 Substrate

Question on Substrates for Uros..I’ve been reading about a lot of different kinds and pros and cons on all of them....What ever happened to Vermiculite? I have seen nothing pertaining to it...What are the Pros and Cons? Thanx Joan

 #27735

 Substrate

I use Canary gourmet diet in a 5Kg bag from Pet smart. I have never seen him eat it once... mind you I don’t stare at him all day. I mix in some dry adult iguana food also with it. Substrate, like some others I use washed play sand. and keep his food on a raised area away from the sand. His stool is fine so far.

 #27736

 Substrate

P.S The food also has some dried fruits in it and no sunflowers, I believe some others like oats etc... hence gourmet... mmm yum.

 #27760

 Substrate

I hear alot of people feed their reptiles outside the cage to minimize intake on substrates. Unfortunately...if they do ingest it, and it does get impacted, you won’t see it in their stool. They can live years with no noticable signs of impaction, so 5-6(or longer) years down the road is when it may accumulate to a dangerous level. I never used vermiculite for a substrate...just egg laying. So i’m not sure about that as a substrate. That would be something to check into. PE

 #27777

 Substrate

I went to a petstore today to check out the seeds for substrate. They have finch mix, budgie mix but they don’t carry a pure form of any one kind of seeds. Budgie mix has seeds in that’s the same size as a rice kernel but mostly millet seeds. Is it ok to use seeds bigger than a millet? They also do not sell anything bigger than 5 lb. bags. What kind of stores should I be checking? HomeDepot?

 #27800

 Substrate

Home Depot does carry bird seeds...my friend uses finch seeds for his collard lizards...they have been fine on that for over a year now. PE

 #29934

 Substrate

hello, i use finch mix. i just get mine at wal mart or a feed store is good if you want a big bag.

 #29935

 Substrate

try an orschelns or i think mfa stores carry bird seed too

 #29957

 Substrate

thanks for the info, I’ll check out Walmart.

 #29960

 Digestable Substrate, Bump That

Just because a substrate is digestable doesn’t make it good. If a reptile recognizes a subtrate as a food source, you have a problem. Think about it, a reptile eating its own substrate might as well be eating its own feces. Would you eat soup from your toilet bowl? I’ve kept desert reptiles on sand for several years, and there has never been a problem. In a uro’s natural habitat, there’s a good chance that they consume some sand. That, and I have yet to see an African desert conmprised of birdseed, paper towels, or alfafa pellets. Go with sand, at $2 for 50lbs of a safe and easy-to-clean substrate, how can you go wrong?

 #30095

 Digestable Substrate, Bump That

I can’t let it go unnoted that my first Uromastyx died of impaction of sand. I took his dead body to the vet for a outopsty and half-way through his digestive system was clotted up with "DRY Sand" and this indirectly cuased two problems. 1: obviously, he was impacted and therefore couldn’t do business, and 2: the amount of sand dehydrated the animal no matter what he drank. Yes these animals are derived from desertous regions BUT these animals are in the care of a completely different genre...Human Society. They also come from regions that have hard compacted sand and normally don’t eat on it. They get their food from plants therefore have to go to a Plant Source. In other words, the sand is just where they bask and really don’t eat directly off of it. Make your own descisions but just note that caging is completely different and these animals don’t know what its like to be in Nature.

 #30111

 Digestable Substrate, Bump That

AdriftQuasar, Against my better judgment I have decided to address a few of your points on digestible substrate. You state: “If a reptile recognizes a subtrate as a food source, you have a problem.” Although this statement could very well be true if a reptile decides to eat large amounts of it’s edible substrate (or any one thing for that matter), why do you feel that a reptile will recognize and use digestible substrate as a food source? I have sixteen Uromastyx and have used red and white millet exclusively as substrate for the past three years without one single problem. None of my uros see their substrate as a major food source and only a few occasionally nibble at it. The majority of my uros could care less about it and do not intentionally eat it at all. Those that decide to drag their food around will ingest some seed which passes through their system without a problem. I sometimes throw a little pelleted bird food and lentils right in the substrate as they appear to like the challenge of scratching and ‘finding’ their food. This brings me to your next statement: “Think about it, a reptile eating its own substrate might as well be eating its own feces. Would you eat soup from your toilet bowl?” I guess I should start by answering your question. No, I would not eat soup from a toilet bowl. But then again, I wouldn’t eat my bacon on a plate of sand either. I am not certain how often you clean your enclosures but I clean mine daily. I found that my enclosures actually stay cleaner with the millet ( I did use natural sand at one time)as the droppings are immediately covered in seed which prevents them from crumbling or being spread around. The seed almost works like glue, encasing the feces in a nice little package for easy removal. I also change my substrate every two months. I buy a good quality seed in bulk so the cost is relatively low. Your observation on African deserts not being made up of birdseed, paper towels, or alfalfa pellets is very interesting to me. How many African deserts have you seen with four enclosed walls, a lid, and a basking bulb? I guess my point is that I agree with some of Joxxer’s comments. We are not talking about reptiles in their natural setting. We are talking about reptiles in captivity with totally different surroundings including different types of sand, food, heating, lighting, …….Whole different ballgame. Although I have my opinion, I am not here to bad mouth sand. I am here to defend seed (not all) substrate which I feel qualified to do as I personally have direct long-term (subjective) experience with its use. I am not saying that seed is the very best substrate; I am not qualified to say that. I am only stating that in my opinion, with the number of years that I have been using it and the observations that I have made with my uros, I feel strongly enough to defend seed as a viable option for those that want to use it. One last suggestion for all- My biggest gripe on this and other forums are the people that feel the need to lecture and put down others for their ideas or husbandry practices. This is a broad observation and not directed at any one single person. I have absolutely no problem with someone sharing an opinion on what they have ‘heard’. I do however, have a problem with someone who has never tried something themselves and yet lecture to others about its benefits or drawbacks. While we are on subject… I also see a problem with those that lecture and put down others even if they are basing their information off of some sort of experience. No one of us out here has the years of experience on all substrates, foods, or any other husbandry practice to be considered the leading authority on any given subject. If you do have an opinion on something- might I suggest using words like “I would recommend, in my opinion, I have heard, you may want to, I suggest, personally, ….. Keep in mind that this entire post is just my opinion so take it for what it is worth.

 #30122

 Digestable Substrate, Bump That

Thanks for sharing your opinion Uro_fan. Substrates are always going to be a heated topic. It is proabably safe to say that there are pros and cons to all the substrates. To add to what joxxer said...another thing sand can do to a reptile besides dehydrate them and stop them from going to the bathroom, but it also kills them slowly because they are not able to digest needed nutrients. The absorbtion of vitamins and minerals happens in the intestines...if they start to get blocked up...then they will not be able to absorb much nutrients. Be Cool PE

 #30176

 Substrate

I understand that I may have come off strongly yesterday, that was not my intention. So for that, I apologize. I agree that I am not qualified to immediately dismiss any one husbandry practice for my own. I had never heard of bird seed being used before, so I suppose I did the average thing and quickly made comments that I couldn’t make intelligently. Thanks for adressing my points, I now see that my logic was non-existant during the post, sorry about that. Anyway, back on topic... I think a better course of action at this point would be listeing the various substrate with their pro’s and cons. I suppose I’ll start. Sand-Very cheap, readily available, easy to scoop the poop, allows for digging, looks good. potentially detremental to the specimen’s health Newspaper-Pretty much free, easy to replace, and safe in terms of avoiding impaction. Some inks are toxic,doesn’t allow any digging, ink can rub off, it’s fugly. Paper Towels-cheap, easy to replace, clean, and safe interms of impaction. Many paper towels are made white with mass amounts of bleach, shouldn’t be a problem, but just in case, doesn’t allow for digging. Walut Products-just don’t use them... I have really no experience with any kind of wood/paper substrates, birdseed, or artificial turf.

 #30201

 Substrate

I don’t think we need any apolgies...I think we are all mature hobbyist expressing our opinions and experiences. It is good that we discuss issues like this. To add to AdriftQuasar list. Sand is cheap, but has been known to cause impactions. As for cleanup...maybe i clean it wrong...but when I used to use sand it would end up all over the place. I don’t even like going to the beach because you always take sand home with you. Alfaflpa pellets...cheap and digestable...But has to be changed frequently and kep dry so mold and bacteria don’t grow so fast. Also not a good choice for people with allergies. Walnut Shells...I agree with AdriftQuasar...causes impaction..can’t really say anything nice...but these shells are not digestable. Newspaper...make sure the ink is not toxic like mentioned above. Your usually safe by using only black and white papers...you can always call your paper up to find out what their ink contains. Wheat Bran...haven’t tried it myself...but bearded dragon keepers use and like it...plus it is digestable...once again..has be kept dry of mold and bacterias will start grow....Also very cheap and looks nice. Bird Seed...something I am going to try real soon...I have friends that use it on baby collards and have had no problems. Bark or mulch...wrong lizard to use that with. Bark absorbs moisture and then releases it back to the air. Besides your lizard can choke on a piece of bark...someone in the iguana forum lost their iguana to choking on bark the other day. Anybody else have more input? PE

 #30218

 Substrate

I use pages from gardening magazines that have pictures of trees and stuff and it looks good (2 me at least).

 #53354

 Substrate

I have a beardagame and a peacockeyed uromastyx in a nice big terrarium of 60x40x20 inch. uptil now i have been using a mixture of reptisand (20 kilos) and washed playsand(30 kilos) I put in the playsand because i remember reading some articles that i read on the internet that said that there was no risk of impaction with this substrate and that it was therefore just as good as specialised reptisand. given the huge cost difference i opted to go half/half. now today i visited a petshop and this guy that was in charge of reptiles says that this fact of washed playsand not causing impaction is not correct and that is a big risk i am taking, even if its mixed with reptisand. anyone here can help me out on what to do?

 #53370

 Substrate

maybe something we coud try out? playsand MAY cause impatcion. for this, it is necessary that the uro feeds ON the sand. I noticed that if you put the food in a bowl, this does not help one bit, because uros tend to dig in their foodbowls spreading the food all around the bowl, on the sand. mine even seems to like to eat what he scattered ON the sand, instead of eating whats left in the bowl. someone posted that in a natural environment they have to go to a plantsource, meaning they chew organic matter at a certain altitude ABOVE the sand. what about putting certain desert plants IN your vivariums? is it been done by any of you? And if this is so, is there anyone who has a list avalable of realtively easyto keep desertplants inside the vivarium? I do not believe in taking the uromastyux OUTSIDE the vivarium since i have noticed that they absolutely do NOT appreciate to be picked up by their owners.

 #53417

 Substrate

I think a majority of the Uro people are going to the birds, seed that is. I did that as soon as could and have found it to work well, easily cleaned, smells good(sort of fruity), it great for digging in, and it is a very inexpensive form of substrate. I do not trust repti-sand or any sand product. I use wheat bran for my dragons and plain old paper towels for my geckos. So economy is a an added benefit of seed.

 #54113

 Substrate

another thing i can suggest is to put large flat rock in the bottom and a thin layer of sand to fill the gap beetween the rocks. if the enclosure i large enought you can provide a side with more sand and shelters so youre uro can digg a little, but always put the source of food aways from that area, for my part i put a little pile of flat rocks in a corner to make some kind of steps and i put their bowl of food on top so it doesnt get in contact with sand. that makes you a good looking setup witouth putting youre uros life in danger! :)

 #100402

 Substrate

i’m getting a mali soon and ive’ done resuch on them and ive heard of all of the differant subtrates. wich is the cheapest and best to use?

 #100411

 Substrate

ive heard reptibark is good and cheap is this true?

 #100556

 Substrate

I would not use reptibark if they were giving it away free. It splinters, holds moisture and molds. Not my choice for substrate.

 #111579

 Substrate

Hi everyone I am new to this forum so first I would like to give you a little background on myself as a herper and all around pet lover. I started keeping reptiles when I was 15 years old and I think I have become very good at it in the 9 years since. I currently have 35 lizards (6 of which are uromastyx my oldest being 10 years old and my youngest approximately a year)and a sulcatta tortoise. I am currently a assistant manager at Petland and I am in charge of ordering and care of the reptiles. Now on to the point of substrate, while everyone has wonderful points on the best substrate to use I would like to give my opinion, you may think I am wrong but remember this is only my opinion. Sand- This is, in my opinion, the best substrate to use. I have kept all of my desert reptiles on sand with no problems of impaction whatsoever (my oldest uro has been on sand since I got him 9 years ago). Sand is also one of the cheapest and easiest to clean. Desert blend- As everyone else said stay away from this substrate even though the manufacturer claims it does not cause impaction if you look at it or roll it around in your fingers you can tell that it has very rough edges which can cut up your reptiles intestines. Bird seed- while I have never used this as a substrate I have heard that it molds easily and since I am happy with sand I will never find out firsthand. Calci-sand- While the concept is sound (sand made of calcium bicarbonate) this substrate clumps and looks terrible if it gets wet also it is not good to use over an extended period due to oversupplementation and possible calcium deposits under the reptiles skin. This is also very expensive ($10 for a 5 lb bag) Alfalfa pellets- molds easily one of the more expensive substrates Newspaper/paper towels- lets face it, it just looks bad :) Wood chips- Creates too much humidity for a desert reptile also can be eaten which will cause a greater risk of impaction than sand ever would As Joanavokes said I wouldnt use this if they were giving it away free. Large sized gravel- This is the only other substrate that I would consider besides sand it looks nice, absolutely no risk of impaction and it also helps to wear down the lizards nails......AND you can wash it off and reuse it!!!!!!!!!! Well thats my opinion on the matter of substrate, my best advice to everyone is to do some research and use whatever seems to work best for them.

 #111728

 Substrate

>>I’ve seen Pogo nibbling on the shells but then I’ve seen it in its stools. It’s obviously moving through its system. I’ve also been watching for blood in its stools just in case the sharp edges of the shells cut its inside but so far, no problems there.<< IMVHO, If you use crushed walnut and then later see blood in his stool it may be to late. I don’t like the stuff at all, it just seems too rough and edgey. It seems to me that it’s like me eating a bunch of those Ninja Throwing Stars (you know what I’m talking about?!), passing them, and then eating more "just because I passed them fine the first time". I’d also like to point out that just because you see it coming out in the stool doesn’t mean he passing all of it that he injests. I had my 4 of my 6 uros on sand and I never had any problems in over 2 years... until about 3 weeks ago. One of my uros, Hermione, got sick, it turned out it was an impaction from the sand, she was given a poor prognosis. Just this past week one of my others, Zilla, that was on sand got an impaction as well (I hadn’t gotten the others off sand yet). So far Hermione has pooped a few times (the first 2 were very sandy) and Zilla seems to have pooped once and it also looks sandy. Thanks goodness for my vet, she’s the best! I took Hermione to see her but I didn’t take Zilla to see her because I could tell it was an impaction so I just treated her with the same meds as Hermione. I guess my point in telling you about my recent uro’s illnesses is that just because you’ve been fine with the substrate for a while now doesn’t mean that it’s OK. Thanks, Allison, Gachnar, Hermione, Zilla, Bob, Kaia, and Junior

 #112140

 Substrate

Re: Pogo’s nibbling habit......... I absolutely hate being quoted when the posting’s almost as old as Pogo herself but I have to agree with you that by the time the problem shows itself it’s probably too late. Since that posting, I have changed Pogo’s substrate to birdseeds. She’s been on it for a few months now and we have no problem with molds. We keep the humidity down and the heat up for her thus eliminate any potential moisture problem.

 #113061

 Substrate<