Kale, collard greens and mustard greens should be fed in limited amounts.

The key to their diet is variety. Give them one green for one week and then a different green the next.

Do not feed a uro insects!! There kidneys are not designed for that much protein. Feeding insects in the long run will cause kidney failure and other disease. For more info on uromastyx go to www.deerfernfarms.com. The guy who runs the site (doug dix) is the foremost breeder of uromastx. If you do buy a uro make sure its captive bred. Most wild caughts die with in a few months.

This is about the third time that I have seen you post that 50% of a uromastyx diet is thawed mixed veggies. In my opinion, this is not a ‘preferred’ diet.

Personally, the only frozen ‘anything’ I feed my uromastyx is every ten days or so I use some frozen and thawed green peas which I supplement moderately with Miner-All to offset the poor Ca:P ratio.

Quite a few of the veggies in these frozen mixes have higher sugar (corn) and protein (legumes) levels than what you would want to use for a staple. The phosphorus to calcium ratio is horrific and a great number of these vegetables are considered moderate to high oxalates. The freezing also negates some of the important nutrients found in fresh veggies.

I am not saying that feeding a frozen vegetable mix should never be done- I just think that making the statement that frozen vegetables should account for 50% of a uromastyx diet is not good advice to pass on to people who are looking for a healthy diet for their uromastyx.

Tell me about your research then as I enjoy comparing notes. What vegetables in your mix are not oxalates? Which of the vegetables have the optimal 2:1 Ca:P ratio? What kind of thiamine levels are you getting from your frozen vegetables after they are thawed? Did you conclude that any vitamins are affected by the release of enzymes when you thaw the vegetables?

As the primary diet in nature for most uromastyx consists of greens from bushes, shrubs and trees with a few flowers and some seeds here and there- what research led you to the conclusion that the nutritional makeup of frozen vegetables is good for your uromastyx?

Did any of your findings indicate that the higher levels of carbohydrates in some of the mixes could lead to obesity and cardiac problems just as in humans? How do you suppose a diet high in frozen vegetables with a poor Ca:P ratio with a daily intake of various legumes contributes to gout or MBD?

I am curious, what were the benefits in frozen vegetables that you were unable to find with greens and fresh vegetables that justified their use as a staple? (I am assuming that these benefits must be great to justify using a high phosphorus/low calcium diet on a daily basis and supplementing it with calcium to attempt to remedy a problem rather than just choosing another food source with similar nutritional values that have a proper balance.) How were you able to come up with the proper amount of calcium supplement to use for this imbalance to ensure that you are not giving too much calcium thus having calcium accumulate in the body and creating another health problem?

I am under the impression from many conversations with Doug that the primary staple in his uromastyx diet is fresh greens.

You misunderstood Doug on the 36x16 enclosure being large enough to house two malis (I spoke to him on this) so I suggest that you ask him if you should not change your diet over and use fresh greens as a staple rather than frozen vegetables. While you are at it, ask him how he feels about the mustard greens you have been feeding.
I have a feeling that Doug was suggesting the frozen veggie diet to acclimate the animal and to put on a little weight after shipping. I do not believe that he would suggest a long-term 50% frozen vegetable diet.
If I am wrong and Doug believes that this diet is fine, then I would have to say that I disagree with Doug on his conclusion.

You absolutely have a right to your opinion but keep in mind that I also have a right to point out advice that I believe could be harmful (long-term) to people who follow it.

Because I disagree with you does not mean that the subject should not be discussed. Forums are all about discussions and differing opinions. I encourage everyone to express their opinion but would remind them to be prepared to back up what they say when someone questions the advice that they are giving to others. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me on something nor do I have a problem presenting why I feel a specific way on a specific issue. (I must also applaud you for your respectful way of disagreeing in this post)

Ideally, when two (or more) people do not agree on a specific item they should present what facts they have for the stance that they have taken on the issue so others who read the differing opinions can ‘look into’ the facts that have been presented and make their own informed decision. Inquiring into each other’s facts or data is also part of this process. In my original post, I presented specific reasons why I did not agree with your 50% frozen diet. You then posted saying research (and Doug) led you to the conclusion that a diet high in frozen vegetables was a good diet. As this logic certainly differed from my findings, I inquired into the specific research that led you to recommend this diet to others as the preferred way to do things. I did not realize when you spoke about research that you were referring to what others have said and done rather than investigating the facts yourself.

The good results you refer to in your last post with uromastyx that are raised on high frozen vegetable diets are only as good as the medical results obtained from studying these animals long-term. As I have stated numerous times, just because a uromastyx is alive several years does not mean that it is healthy or that the husbandry is right.
Heck, I have no idea if I am doing things right but at the same time I feel confident in knowing that my opinions and husbandry is based on a lot of research including studies and papers from medical, government and educational institutions. I also closely track the growth rate, type of shed (indication of health and proper husbandry), and various other health issues with all of my animals as well as obtaining blood work on a large percentage of my animals.

I have seen studies and nutritional papers that indicate long-term frozen food diets are less beneficial than fresh diets and that they can lead to specific nutritional deficiencies over time. This is just one of the negatives I found behind feeding a diet high in frozen vegetable mixes. I find the nutritional breakdown of the various items used (high sugar breakdown to starch, negative Ca:P ratio, mod-high oxalates and protein levels with the peas, green beans, lima and other legumes) even more concerning. This data is why I finally jumped in with my opinion on your advice to others that half of a uromastyx diet should consist of frozen vegetables.

I am glad to hear that you are supplementing with Miner-All but my tip in the last post was that d3 will build up in the system and can be toxic. Excess calcium can also accumulate. I think you missed my point of possible adverse conditions that can result from supplementing with too much calcium d3. Having uvb and supplementing on top of this will increase the possibility of toxicity. If you read the container, you will see a warning that you should not use the indoor formula with d3 if you use natural sunlight. Although artificial uvb levels will be less, it should be taken into consideration especially if you are using the supplement every day. The container also states that supplementing with other d3 sources can be harmful (sentence even ends in an !) These cautions should raise some flags that d3 has toxic levels and should not be over used. I have yet to find a reliable study that tells the amount of d3/calcium that can/should be supplemented before adverse health conditions result. I have however, seen and heard of numerous examples where negative health conditions have resulted from too much supplemented calcium and/ord3. Please just keep in mind that it is possible that feeding a diet that lacks in the proper ratio and ‘guessing’ with daily d3/calcium supplements may result in health problems that you may not see for years down the road. I for one, am not willing to take that chance so I try to feed the proper Ca:P ratio with natural food items and supplement as little as possible.

I realize that you are young and have only had a uromastyx for a few months so my suggestion would be to try not to make factual statements such as a uromastyx diet ’should be’ 50% frozen vegetables. Instead, use terms like, I have heard, I am using…ect. Also try to be fair and state that although you use this practice you have also heard that it might not be optimal. Passing on information you have ’heard’ from others as factual statements without really investing the time in research can sometimes lead to a vicious cycle of misinformation. Just ask anyone who took advice from others on the benefits of using crushed walnut shells, calci-sand, or a high animal protein diet for an herbivore and ended up losing an animal because of it.

Glad to hear that you are continuing to use fresh greens and I would recommend that you consider using 2-3 different types (endive, escarole, dandelion) on a daily basis and then alternate in those less attractive greens such as collard greens, bok choy…ect. (you can check with Doug on this and I am willing to bet a Snickers candy bar that he agrees with me)
I will also continue to recommend backing off on the frozen vegetable amount and reducing the calcium/d3 supplements but ultimately it is your decision on how you choose to raise your uromastyx.

Once the buyer gets their pet they can go to feeding them the proper balance of greens without the veggies and yet in most circumstances the animal will have lost the excess weight or benefits of the veggies but have gained more from a proper diet over time.
My yellow Nigerian spent 4 days in a box, she was extremelly underweight and VERY stressed. I am still trying to put weight on her but when it comes down to it, vegetarian diet isn’t meant to work in the short term, its meant to work over time with consistent feedings.
I have noticed from my lizards that when they have eaten frozen veggies they seem bloated, and when they deficate it is usually very large and the animal seems very skinny afterwards. yet when they eat nothing but greens over a weeks time I have noticed they weight stays the same or doesn’t vary greatly even after deficating.

The quote you referenced from Doug’s website discussing primary diet items listed collard greens as one of those items. A few paragraphs down you noted that Doug recommends that collard greens should be limited. Not every one of the items he listed under that quote is used as a staple. I do know that Doug uses curly endive, escarole, dandelion, and other greens as much as he can for staples. I also know that Doug uses Miner-All on every pea or frozen veggie feeding. This does not mean that he feeds these daily just that he supplements on every feeding (of these items) because of the poor Ca:P ratio.

I use a pea mixture every ten days or so and I supplement every pea feeding with Miner-All Indoor formula. I use UVB lighting and a good Ca:P balance of fresh greens so I sparingly use Miner-ALL once a week. The most I have ever used this supplement (have been using it for years) is several times a week and again, it is always used sparingly. I have never had a uromastyx exhibit signs of MBD nor has any of the blood work indicated more calcium was needed in the diet. I have also never had a uromastyx present signs of excess d3 or calcium nor have I seen abnormal or high calcium levels in the blood work. (keep in mind we do not have exact norms so this is subjective and based on blood values of similar reptiles which will give us a base value for high and low but may not be completely accurate)

You asked in your last post how often you should dust with calcium/d3.
I do not know for certain exactly how much calcium or d3 should be given to our reptiles- I am not certain if anyone knows.

Here is a very crude way of looking at d3 supplements-

D3 is one of the more toxic vitamins (many believe most toxic) as it is fat-soluble and will build up with use. Because d3 is fat soluble, the levels for toxicity are rather low (estimated just 4x USDA recommended dose) compared to other water soluble vitamins some of which can be ingested at hundreds of times the usda level with little or no adverse affects.

The USDA recommended level of d3 in humans is 400iu per day. (I am not here to debate the issue of whether or not this amount is justified- I did not arrive at the level -the USDA did). Let’s say that the average human weighs 152 lbs (splitting female male average) and that the USDA used this specific weight measurement to figure out the recommended dosage. This would mean that the recommended dose of d3 would be .0058 iu per gram of weight. Now, sticking with the USDA recommended level, let’s convert this over to a uromastyx. (I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS LEVEL IS CORRECT FOR A UROMASTYX- I am using it for illustration)
A 150 gram uromastyx should have no more (using usda human level) than .87 iu of d3 per day. Your container of Miner-ALL contains roughly 125 iu per oz of dust so using up to 0.007 oz (seven one thousandths of an ounce) should be ok. I say should as we do not know if the usda level can accurately be applied to uromastyx- this is all a guess- the level may be too high or too low- we just don’t know. Do you have any idea if you are using more than 7/1000 of an ounce (1/5 of a gram) each time you sprinkle this on your uros food?
There are people out there who think that this is wonderful stuff which is safe and harmless so with the ‘more the better’ attitude, they liberally coat the food with this on a daily basis. The scary part is that while Miner-ALL has fairly safe levels of d3, there are many products on the market which have excessive (in my opinion) levels. It is my personal belief that coating your uromastyx food on a daily basis with a product that has these higher levels will ultimately lead to adverse health conditions.

Now, take a look at the Reptivite you are using. The level of d3 in this product is extremely high compared to the level in Miner-ALL. Reptivite contains 650 iu per oz! Sticking with the rough USDA based level we came up with, your 150-gram uromastyx should have no more than .87 iu so feeding more than one 1000th of an ounce (1/25 of a gram) could potentially be harmful to your animal. These are extremely small amounts we are speaking of. Keep in mind that you use the Miner-ALL every day so the uro is getting two doses of d3 on those days that you feed reptivite.

Everyone should be aware of the items they are feeding and whether or not they contain d3. Uromastyx dust by T-Rex contains d3 in similar levels to Miner-All. Most iguana diets also contain d3 as well. Some pelleted bird foods (such as Zupreem) also have d3 added in. Please take into account everything you are feeding other than fresh greens and vegetables and take into consideration the level of uvb you are providing. If your animal gets natural sunlight on a routine basis, I would recommend not supplementing with additional d3 at all but a standard calcium supplement (such as Miner-ALL outdoor formula) in moderation should be fine. If you are able to provide fair levels of artificial uvb, then think about supplementing sparingly a few times per week or when feeding foods with negative Ca:P ratios. Those that do not provide uvb at all can supplement with more frequency but still need to be aware of the levels they are providing. I do not know all of the answers (or even a lot) regarding calcium/d3 but this gives a little insight into how I feel about calcium d3 supplements and why I choose to use them sparingly. There is much, much more to this than what I have touched on here. This is just a small portion of information ( we haven’t even touched on the BIG role that phosphorus plays in all of this) and a very crude explanation and way of looking at calcium/d3 levels.

As long as I am stressing so much caution with d3, I should probably briefly explain ‘why’ I am doing so. In addition to d3 toxicity, there is another health concern of feeding a high calcium d3 diet to reptiles. In my last post I briefly mentioned that you may not see the harmful effects of feeding calcium/d3 for years. Let me explain-

Studies have shown that ‘most’ excess calcium (without the presence of d3 supplements) will not be absorbed through the intestinal track but will instead be excreted in the feces. When you add in d3 supplements, over exposure to uvb, or daily exposure to natural sunlight WITH the excess calcium the result can be the health problems that I referred to in my last post. The presence of excessive calcium with moderate or high amounts of d3 will result in high levels of calcium being absorbed through the intestines and the excess calcium will result in a buildup in the soft tissue (such as artery walls) and on or around the bones. (This should not be confused with the swelling around the joints due to gout but unfortunately, it sometime is) . The condition I described above with the calcium deposits/buildup is often referred to as pseudo gout..

According to Dr Mader, the most common vascular disease in reptiles is “calcification of the tunica media of the large vessels.” (simple term: thickening of the walls of the arteries and veins similar to arteriolosclerosis in humans). Dr Mader goes on to state that although the exact cause is unclear, there appears to be a ‘distinct association’ between this condition and diets containing excessive levels of d3 and calcium.
This condition is usually found on x-rays, physical examination with extreme cases, or during necropsy on an animal that just suddenly died. Most often, it is not found at all as most owners do not invest money into necropsies or x-rays. I would be willing to bet that a large percentage of uromastyx (and other reptiles) kept in captivity have this condition due to the overuse of calcium with d3 and it is only a matter of time for most of these animals. Like in humans, we could probably consider it a silent killer.

Let me sum up this rambling post by saying that I do recommend frozen peas to help acclimate new animals and do not completely oppose those that insist on using frozen veggies as supplements. I do agree with Doug that each of these feedings need to be offset with a calcium or calcium/d3 supplement of some sort. HOWEVER,… we need to be extremely careful on how much we supplement and the levels of vitamins and minerals in the supplements we use. One of the big reasons that I like Miner-ALL is because of the lower d3 level and the additional minerals that you do not find in some other calcium supplements. My recommendation is to feed a healthy balanced fresh diet and error on the side of caution when it comes to calcium/d3 and vitamin supplements.

Your logic on using the calcium/d3 supplement every third day because of the distance of the uvb light sounds sensible.