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 #1152999


Sonorone
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 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

hey some of you might see me more frequently on the snakes forum but tonight I finally got my first scorpion which is an african flatrock. i saw these guys about a month ago at a local petshop and started studying them. the more I studied the more I found out they had him in some pretty bad conditions (under lights, no hides, on calcisand, low humidity living in a little cricket keeper). well i knew that wouldnít be good so picked him up tonight. it seems to be fairly relaxed in itís new home so far. I have some more hides and gages coming tomorrow morning to complete everything. anyways hereís some pics i hope you all enjoy and looking forward to be here a little more regular.





01/29/07  10:28pm

 #1154273


BallPython2
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  Message To: Sonorone   In reference to Message Id: 1152999


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Take the sponge out of the tank all together.i it can cause bacteria and fungus. if you are worrying about your scorpion not being able to get out of the water bowl just put some pebbles in there and heíll be able to make his way out of it without issue.

here are some pictures of my Pandinus imperators:








01/30/07  09:51pm

 #1155396


Sonorone
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  Message To: BallPython2   In reference to Message Id: 1154273


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

thanks for the info on that ballpython2. I actually saw that when soon after you posted it and already took it out. definately makes sense. anyways it can get in and out of the water ok. the dish has like a natural step to it and I recessed it in the sub a bit too to make a nice step out as well. I also like your Pandinus imperators as well. Like I said i am fairly new to scorpions and so far have just studied up on hadogenes troglodytes for now. will probably just stick with that for a while to see how well i do with it. but so far all is very well the the little one.



01/31/07  08:38pm

 #1155499


BallPython2
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  Message To: Sonorone   In reference to Message Id: 1155396


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

I canít tell from the way youhave the tank but if you dont have some you need to have two hides in there if not more....you can use basically anything but they need some kind of coverage...



01/31/07  09:41pm

 #1155995


Sonorone
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  Message To: Sonorone   In reference to Message Id: 1152999


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Quote:

I have some more hides and gages coming tomorrow morning to complete everything.



yep and they came in. it was some small cave like things but to be honest i heard from another owner that has been terrific on information that they seem to really like pieces of cork bark in a loose pile so as soon as the whether breaks here i am getting some.



02/01/07  11:29am

 #1162181


Dmetz
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  Message To: Sonorone   In reference to Message Id: 1155995


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Iím not sure what kind of research you did, but, by the looks of that set up, you werenít researching H. troglodytes and/or, you came across some bad info.

They are desert species, so yes, sand is a good substrate for them. Make sure you presoak the sand and let it dry completely before you put the scorpion in the container. The sand will be and should be, quite hard and packed after it has sufficiently dried. You want it that way, donít loosen it. You can use any color sand that your heart desires, however, getting a color that contrasts to the color of your scorpion is advisable so you can see the scorpion more easily. Depending on the size of the scorpion, the largest container you would need would be a large kritter keeper (for an adult). Take the water dish out and only put one in every other month for about a week or so. They DO require low humidity....hence desert species. Excess moisture can cause microsis in desert scorpions, which can kill them and no, there is no cure for it.
Donít bother with hides for this species. They are called "flat rocks" for a reason. Their ideal type of hide is a couple large, flat rocks, stacked securely, so they can squeeze between the cracks in them.
Look around your yard or someplace where rocks are plentiful, find a few flat ones, scrub them in hot water, then boil them for 20 minutes, let them cool, stack them, no more than two rocks high, in the container, make sure they are not going to topple, then put your scorpion back in.
Your scorpion will be much happier and more comfortable in a natural habitat. By the threat display itís giving in those pictures, it does not look very comfortable or happy.
Oh, and donít waste your time and money on gauges. You donít need to bother checking humidity level because itís irrelevant and, as long as the temperature inside your home is not lower than 70 F. during the day and 60 F. at night, additional heat sources are NOT necessary.



02/05/07  07:11pm

 #1162626


Sonorone
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  Message To: Dmetz   In reference to Message Id: 1162181


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Ok thank you for the correction Dmetz. you know there are actually alot of bad info on these guys then, mostly in the case of hydration and humidity. most caresheets I have seen is calling for more of a 70-75% humidity range. From the other posts I read on here you definately sound like you know what you are doing and you advice will be followed. I am glad you found this post and corrected my setup, it actually sounds like it is going to be alot easier than I anticipated in maintaining itís environment. gain I really appreciate the help. well now off to change the enclosure around.



02/05/07  11:04pm

 #1162697


Tatsu86
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  Message To: Sonorone   In reference to Message Id: 1162626


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Honestly youĀfll find bad... or conflicting info on almost any animal (or children!!). The thing is everyone has their own way of raising them, and their own opinions, there are often far more wrong ways of doing something, but usually at least a few options of doing it a "right" way. IĀfm no scorpion expert... I know fair deal from where i work (a pet store) and i was browsing on here because iĀfve been thinking of getting into arachnids. But anyways, for what itĀfs worth what Dmetz said sounds right to me as well.



02/05/07  11:40pm

 #1162746


Dmetz
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  Message To: Tatsu86   In reference to Message Id: 1162697


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Quote:

Honestly youĀfll find bad... or conflicting info on almost any animal (or children!!). The thing is everyone has their own way of raising them, and their own opinions, there are often far more wrong ways of doing something, but usually at least a few options of doing it a "right" way. IĀfm no scorpion expert... I know fair deal from where i work (a pet store) and i was browsing on here because iĀfve been thinking of getting into arachnids. But anyways, for what itĀfs worth what Dmetz said sounds right to me as well.

Very true, however, when it comes to certain animals, the "wrong" way to raise them can result in a shorter life span for the animal.

When raising children, cats or dogs, there is room for experimentation, IE, some may choose to feed their children a vegetarian diet while others may choose to to feed them a diet that consists of meat. Some people may feed their cats or dogs commercial pet foods while others may choose to feed them raw meat. However, with say...horses, they wonít fair very well on a carnivoreís diet, just as carnivores donít fair very well on a vegetarian diet (I can hear the vegans now....beating down my door )

When it comes to the care of invertebrates in particular, there is a distinct line between good care and bad care. That line lays on environmental conditions in captivity.
I hope this does not sound rude, I do not mean it to but, working in a pet store does not, in my mind, lend much credence to knowledge about inverts, especially seeing as how most pet stores have absolutely deplorable conditions for their animals, especially exotic animals.

A desert scorpion or tarantula simply can not be cared for the same way that a tropical or rain forest species can, just as an arboreal can not be housed the same way as a terrestrial.
Will they "survive"? Sure, for a while, but they will not be healthy nor happy and thus, will have shorter life spans.
Inverts, while having an amazing ability to adapt to the abuses that humans put them through, are very fragile animals and when kept in the wrong environmental conditions for extended periods of time, they suffer and, for me at least, the health and comfort of the animal is more important than what the keeper feels is easier.

The idea of these forums is to help provide "correct" information for the keeper, that includes correct environmental conditions. When people come in with their "opinions" it tends to get messy, especially if they do not have any experience with said animal.



02/06/07  12:14am

 #1163069


Sonorone
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  Message To: Dmetz   In reference to Message Id: 1162746


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Well said Dmetz. I agree about bad information. to be honest if you searched for "hadogenes troglodytes care sheet" you will see alot of the top care sheets say "70-75% humidity." which to me anyways normally means some sort of sub that hold humidity and misting. According to Dmetzís original post here that will end up killing your flatrock. after doing more searching I think I did have one or two that had it right but to be honest you look on the surface of this itís easy to see how a beginner in scorpions(like myself) could easily dismiss this proper information and go with the bad. *sigh* I wonder how many flatrocks came to an early death due to these "careshhets". I am glad that i posted here so as said before someone with a great deal more experience can set me right and make sure my scorpion ends up in the right conditions.



02/06/07  11:14am

 #1163363


Dmetz
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  Message To: Sonorone   In reference to Message Id: 1163069


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

Well, 70 to 75% is a bit high for the species in general, 50 to 60% is more like it.
What should be taken into consideration, which many people do not when making a care sheet, is that the percentages given are those of the animalís natural habitat. The thing with natural habitats is that they are huge, wide open spaces with a diverse range of temperatures and humidity at any given point on the ground, under ground or in the air.

We do not keep our animals in the wide open spaces, we keep them in little boxes with lids. That in its self changes things a lot. The temperature inside a plastic or glass container will be different from the ambient room temperature and/or humidity. Also, being housed in containers restricts ventilation, which, in turn, effects the temperature and humidity levels. To have our bedroom at 75 F. and 70% humidity would make the atmosphere inside a standard KK roughly 78 to 80 F. and 75 to 80% RH....see the difference?

Also, the containers we keep our inverts in are not insulated like our homes are, thus, if the temperature is 95 F. in our room, the temperature inside that container is going to be higher. In contrast, if our room is 60 F. that containerís temperature can drop as low as 50 to 55 F. because there is nothing there to hold the heat in.

I know Iím rambling....again...just one more thing, I promise.
New keepers often make the mistake of trying to maintain a "constant" temperature and RH percentage 24/7....thatís a no no.

The idea with keeping inverts is to try and simulate what their natural environment would be like. The environment fluctuates all the time, every day and by season. The RH % is not going to be the same at 4 PM as it was at 7 AM and the temperature is not going to be the same at noon as it was at 2 AM. Nature fluctuates and so should the temps and RH inside our crittersí containers....for their own good and for their health.
Terrestrial and burrowing inverts (scorpions in this case) do what they do, be that burrow or hide under rocks for specific reasons....to escape light and heat and to self regulate their desired humidity levels.

If youíve ever stuck your hand in a hole, youíll notice that the temperature inside the hole is lower (in the warmer months) and higher (in the cooler months) and that the moisture level is slightly higher than that on the surface. If youíve ever flipped over a rock...even a piece of gravel...youíll notice that the dirt underneath is cool and damp, even if the soil around it is bone dry and hot.

So, basically, what you want to shoot for with regard to temperature and RH is to *not* have the surface temps and RH right at the animalís ideal level and percentage, but rather keeping the RH lower and the temperature very slightly...not more than a couple degrees...higher, hence why I often say to not bother with additional heat sources unless the room temperature inside our homes is extreme. Average room temperature works beautifully for most all inverts, be they scorpions or tarantulas. That way, the animal will do what it would normally do in nature...burrow, or hide under a rock. Yes, it makes for an invisible scorpion, but, as they say, a happy scorpion is an invisible one.



02/06/07  04:26pm

 #1163720


Sonorone
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  Message To: Dmetz   In reference to Message Id: 1163363


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

just a little update I rearranged the viv completely with the compacted sand and all seems well. I emptied the water dish and using it to hold up the other rock to make a hide so to speak. I will be getting more rocks as soon as the weather breaks in a few days. we are slammed with snow and sub-zero temps right now. but once it clear some i have a nearby creek bed with plenty of flat rocks that would work great.

If an invisible scorpion is a happy scorpion then all most be working. when I placed it in the new viv it did one slow casual walk aorund the cage then went at a calm pace right under the rock. I moved the rock to see and it just sit there very still. placed the rock back and all seems well.

Once I get those rocks and the cork bark with my next cricket order I will take another picture of the viv for further advice. i do really appreciate all the help, turms out with all the great info Dmetz gave in the last post (great stuff by the way, really gives me a better outlook on keeping invertabrates) seems they will be easier than expected. once I get going good with this one might try some more.



02/06/07  08:33pm

 #1540799


Bertus
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  Message To: Sonorone   In reference to Message Id: 1163720


 My Hadogenes troglodytes (african flatrock)

hi, just a small correction on info given earlier in this thread. hadogenes troglodytes is not a desert species. they occur in many areas across southern africa - mostly bushveld environments. it is good advice though to keep their conditions rather dry.



12/09/07  02:54pm


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