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 #2315790


DrzriderEd
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 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Years ago I kept monitors, and today I was feeling nostalgic so I came to this site to see how things are today. I am glad to see a few names I recognize and some I don’t. It looks like monitor husbandry is not practiced by as many people today. I can’t decide if that is a good thing or bad.
I used to post on here and other forums under the name DRZRIDER. I pulled up some of my old posts looking at how much I had learned over the years I kept monitors. Unfortunately I do not have any now, and a divorce a few years ago forced me sell the ones I used to have. For the sake of old times I included some rough notes I kept on a pair of Argus I used to keep. I also included some pictures at the end. I miss them!

Argus Breeding 2007/2010

Time between clutches

Clutch 1 - 12/30/07
-6 eggs -6 hatched
-3 months 19 days – 110 days

Clutch 2 - 4/18/08
-8 eggs -0 hatched
-5 months – 153 days

Clutch 3 - 9/22/08
-13 eggs – 13 hatched
-6 months 7 days – 188 days

Clutch 4 – 3/29/09
-14 eggs – 12 hatched
-3 months 26 days – 118 days

Clutch 5 – 7/25/09
-15 eggs – 11 hatched

Clutch 6 – May 10
-Missed digging them up – Found eaten egg in enclosure

Clutch 7 – 10/7/10
-14 good eggs, one egg deformed (size of 2 eggs together
-14 hatched

Notes on Breeding

Two Argus arrived on 4-6-07:
Argus 1 hatched on 2/15/07 and weighed 52.3 grams.
Argus 2 hatched on 2/20/07 and weighed 45.5 grams

10-14-07
1134 grams - 2lbs 8 oz – 1st argus
992 grams - 2lbs 3oz – 2nd argus

12-30-07
-6 Eggs found in enclosure 2.5 inches to 3 inches in length
Egg#1 – 45 grams
Egg#2 – 45 grams
Egg#3 – 40 grams
Egg#4 – 40 grams
Egg#5 – 50 grams
Egg#6 – 50 grams
3-19-08
Mating took place and pictures taken. Mating was taking place a few days before

3-28-08
Last breeding witnessed

4-9-08 (aprox.)
Female took last meal

4-11-08
Female tail base looks to have lost mass

4-12-08
Female soaked in water for first time

4-13-08
Female spent all day until nightfall in nest box

4-14-08
Female spent all day out of nest box. She looks very thin on tail and back.

4-15-08
Female soaked in water

4-16-08
In the am the female was head first in a burrow in the nest box.
In the pm the female looked to be laying on top of the dirt in the nest box. It was hard to tell when I looked in.

4-17-08
Female is in burrow under the substrate. Not in nest box.
3:45pm - One egg spotted in burrow, no sign of either argus
1 egg was laying by itself in the opening of the burrow. I put it in the incubator. The egg felt like a piece of foam rubber. It was very soft and felt full.
4-18-08
4:40pm - Female still in burrow
8:30pm – Female was out of burrow and looked deflated. We dug up 7 more
eggs but 2 got broken in the process. 6 eggs are incubating from 2nd clutch
21 days from last witnessed breeding
Aprox. 33 days from 1st witnessed breeding
4-23
Female finally went underground during the night. I have not seen her eating.
4-24
Found digested (shriveled) egg on substrate
4-25
9:30 am – Female was basking on lower basking spot
9:30 pm – Female was on upper basking spot

---All eggs laid in April went bad in first week of incubation---
9 eggs total: 1 eaten, 2 damaged during digup, 6 went bad during incubation

6-11-08
164 days of incubation
Eggs #1 and #6 are dented on top. Egg #4 is dented on the side.

6-22-08
Day 175 egg #2 - head of hatchling sticking out of shell at 2pm
egg #4 - head of hatchling sticking out of shell at 8:30pm

6-23-08
Day 176 9:30pm
egg #2 – totally out of shell
Egg#4 – head is out of shell
Egg #5- pipped
Egg #6 – pipped
Egg #1- small slit in egg on side

6-24-08
Day 177 7:00am
Egg #3 - has head sticking out
5:00pm
Egg #4 – totally out of shell

6-25-08
Day 178 10:00am
Egg #3 – totally out of shell
Egg #5 – totally out of shell
Egg #6 – totally out of shell
6-26-08
Day 179 8:30am
Egg #1 – head sticking out of shell

6-27-08
Day 180 7:15am
Egg #1 – totally out of shell

All hatchling were around 10 inches long:
Baby #1-30 grams, 6-27-08
Baby#2- 40 grams, 6-23-08
Baby#3- 30 grams, 6-25-08
Baby#4- 35 grams, 6-24-08
Baby#5- 35 grams, 6-25-08
Baby#6- 40 grams, 6-25-08

8-19-08
Breeding took place

9-21-08
Female burrowed into nest box

9-22-08
Argus eggs laid in nest box of moist sand. Temperature of eggs was 84.1 degrees
Egg #1- 70 grams, 3 inches
Egg #2- 75 grams, 3 inches
Egg #3- 70 grams, 2 ¾ inches
Egg #4- 75 grams, 3 inches
Egg #5- 65 grams, 2 7/8 inches
Egg #6- 70 grams, 3 inches
Egg #7- 70 grams, 3 inches
Egg #8- 70 grams, 3 inches
Egg #9- 70 grams, 3 inches
Egg #10- 70 grams, 3 inches
Egg #11- 75 grams, 3 inches
Egg #12- 70 grams, 2 ¾ inches
Egg #13- 75 grams, 3 inches

2-24-09
Observed argus mating – female has not been eating like usual – neither ate tonight.
-female has been looking thin

2-27-09
Argus still mating

2-28-09
Female is soaking in water. Probably still mating

3-3-09
Day 162
All Eggs in container 1 are dented on top or side.

3-8-09
Female is large and definitely has eggs.

3-13-09
Day 172
One egg in container 2 is starting to dent

3-16-09
Day 175
All container 2 eggs had dented on bottom.
I added water to the vermiculite in the container 2.
I mixed up the vermiculite in container 1. It was very wet on the front and drier in the middle

3-19-09
Day 178
One argus is totally out of shell #5 and running around. 50 grams, 11.5 to 12 inches
Another has its nose sticking out.

3-21-09
Day 180
Second argus, 60 grams, was out of shell #4, 3 more eggs pipped

3-22-09 AM
Day 181
third argus, 55 grams, out of shell #7, 4 eggs pipped in container 1. One not pipped in container 1 and none of the 5 pipped in container 2.

3-22-09 PM
Day 181
4 eggs in container 1 have heads out of the shell. 5th shell is now slit.

3-23-09 AM
Day 182
2 more argus are out of the shell, The rest of the 3 in container 1 all have their heads out.

3-23-09 PM
Day 182
2 argus in top container are out of shells. The last is almost totally out, his tail and one back leg are still in the shell.


All hatchling were around 12 inches long:
Baby #1- 56 grams, 3-23
Baby#2- 51 grams, 3-23
Baby#3- 55 grams, 3-23
Baby#4- 60 grams, 3-21
Baby#5- 50 grams, 3-19
Baby#6- 55 grams, 3-25
Baby #7- 55 grams, 3-22
Baby#8- 52 grams, 3-24
Baby#9- 50 grams, 3-30
Baby#10- 52 grams, 3-29
Baby#11- 55 grams, 4-1
Baby#12- 53 grams, 4-1
Baby#13- 55 grams, 3-31

3-26-09
Female argus soaking. She has not taken food in the last couple of days. She is looking thin in the tail base and everywhere except for her full belly.

3-27-09
Day 186
One head sticking out of shell in container 2 of eggs.
No sign of adult argus in enclosure. A lot of digging has been going on.

3-28-09
Day 187
Still just the one head sticking out of a shell
Wife said she saw one argus today. I have seen neither tonight.

3-29-09 AM
Day 188
Still the one head sticking out of the shell. One other egg has slit.
We dug up 14 eggs, but one was damaged in the process. 13 are in the incubator.

Egg #1- 77 grams
Egg #2- 78 grams
Egg #3- 82 grams
Egg #4- 76 grams
Egg #5- 73 grams
Egg #6- 77 grams
Egg #7- 76 grams
Egg #8- 76 grams
Egg #9- 82 grams
Egg #10- 78 grams
Egg #11- 78 grams
Egg #12- 76 grams
Egg #13- 78 grams
Egg#14- Damaged in digging them up

3-29-09 PM
Day 188
Egg #10 totally hatched, 52 grams

3-30-09 AM
Day 189
Head is out of 2nd egg in 2nd container

3-30-09 PM
Day 189
Egg #9 hatched, 50 grams – one head out of shell

3-31-09 AM
Day 190
2 heads were out of shells – one egg left to pip

3-31-09 PM
Day 190
Egg#13 has hatched. The last 2 eggs have pipped.

4-1-09 AM
Day 191
Egg#11 and #12 hatched. 100% hatch rate

5-19-09
Day 51
One egg was thrown out for being bad. It was moldy, dark colored, and deflated. I opened the egg and a white, solid mass filled the inside.

7-25-09
Dug up 15 eggs in enclosure near basking spot. Put all 15 eggs in incubator.

8-1-09
One egg covered in mold. Threw it out

9-2-09
One egg is deflated and does not look good, left it in incubator

9-23-09
Day 179
First egg has pipped.

9-25-09
Day 181
Two more eggs have pipped

9-26-09
Day 182
-AM: -Container 1: Three argus have hatched and the last 2 eggs have heads sticking out of the eggs.
-Container 2: None of the 7 eggs have pipped yet.
-PM: -Container 1: all eggs in container 1 have hatched

9-28-09
Day 184
2 eggs in container 2 have heads sticking out.


9-29-09
Day 185
1 egg of container #2 is completely hatched.

9-30-09
Day 186
-AM: 2nd argus has completely hatched. 3rd head has pipped.
-PM: 4th and 5th heads are sticking out. Only 2 eggs left to pip.

10-1-09
Day 187
-AM: 3rd argus has hatched
-PM: 4th and 5th argus have hatched
6th egg has pipped, only one egg left to pip

10-2-09
Day 188
-AM: The 12th and last egg pipped

10-3-09
Day 189
All 12 argus have hatched.

1-25-10
Day 184
I slit one egg that was extremely deflated. I opened the egg enough to see inside and the baby with a large yolk sack attached slid out. Wife wrapped it in gladware plastic wrap and I put it on a plastic container top in the incubator.

1-26-10
Day 185
I checked on the baby and found it had escaped from the gladwrap and had wrapped the yolk sack around a bar in the shelf in the incubator. I unwrapped the sack to free the monitor and then put it in a sealed container.

1-28-10
Day 187
The yolk sack was attached to the baby by a small thread of skin and the baby could not move around without pulling the sack. The sack was hard and ruptured with the contents leaking out. I cut the thread of skin connecting the baby and sack.
I gave the baby crickets. It is unclear if the baby ate any.

1-31-10
Day 190
-AM: One argus hatched from its egg on its own accord. (2nd argus out of egg) 2 other eggs have pipped
-PM: 4th egg has pipped
2nd container has 1 egg dented
2-1-10
Day 191
-PM: 2nd and 3rd argus hatched, 2 argus halfway out of egg, last egg in container has head sticking out

2-2-10
Day 192
-AM: All 6 eggs totally hatched in container 1 – still one egg dented in container 2
4 eggs in container 2

2-3-10
Day 193
-PM: 2nd egg has dented

2-4-10
Day 194
-PM: One egg has pipped

2-5-10
Day 195
-AM: the pipped egg hatched

2-6-10
Day 196
-AM: one of last 3 eggs pipped
-PM: all of the last 3 eggs pipped

2-7-10
Day 197
-AM: 9th egg hatched
-PM: 10th egg hatched

10-7-10
-New clutch of 15 eggs laid, 14 look good

10-21-10
-1 egg was not fertilized and covered in mold, egg was removed

11-8-10
-incubator had been set on 96 degrees instead of 86 degrees, I corrected temperature of incubator

Date Unknown
-14 eggs from last clutch hatched

This is one of them when I first got them



Here they both are all grown up



and finally some of their babies





11/19/15  10:05pm

 #2315800


Yaksha
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  Message To: DrzriderEd   In reference to Message Id: 2315790


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Thanks for sharing that was very interesting



11/20/15  10:29am

 #2315824


Mdf
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  Message To: DrzriderEd   In reference to Message Id: 2315790


 My Notes on Argus Breeding



I always remembering that vid and that giant leap your mon did :)



11/21/15  10:05am

 #2316040


JPsShadow
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  Message To: Mdf   In reference to Message Id: 2315824


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Hey I remember those argus monitors ;) Hows it going?



12/10/15  09:01am

 #2316042


Manchild
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  Message To: JPsShadow   In reference to Message Id: 2316040


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

It’s been a long time good to see you again ed I do miss the old days



12/10/15  01:23pm

 #2316306


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: DrzriderEd   In reference to Message Id: 2315790


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Does everyone on here breed these varanids or do most keep them alone? I’ve been lurking around different sites, I find many people breed. Can’t one just keep a single monitor for the enjoyment of it? Do they live longer when bred? Nice information sir. Too bad you can’t get back into the hobby.



12/27/15  04:32pm

 #2316376


Mdf
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316306


 My Notes on Argus Breeding



Charles Lee Ray Here’s a n answer for you if you read through the post, hope it helps!.
Click Here



01/02/16  11:55am

 #2316377


Mdf
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  Message To: Mdf   In reference to Message Id: 2316376


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

try again>

Click Here



01/02/16  11:56am

 #2316385


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: Mdf   In reference to Message Id: 2316377


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Fact is two monitors are too much financially for me. Just hope to raise the one I got into a healthy mature monitor. Iguannas and agamids are more social than the majority of varanidae. Maybe I’ll breed out my monitor, so it may have the experience, but two or more is just too much for me. Retes’ long explanation,Socratic like, makes sense but when you see a monitor in the wild they are generally going solo. They don’t care for their young nor express affection like monkeys. People who keep monkeys keep pairs, but the varanid mind is not close to as complex. I think people who keep more than one want to make money or are greedy, otherwise the extra space and food should scare new keepers off. Just imagine being stuck in your bedroom alone for life then one day a new person is added, so the space is now cut in half. I would go bannanas after the first day, especially if it’s a disagreeable woman, incompatible and aggressive, but stuck in the room forever. Good read but a little too sophisticated for the reptilian brain.



01/03/16  08:59pm

 #2316391


3240
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316385


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Charles,

I’m not sure where to begin because you’re so wrong. Monitors are very social and do well in groups or pairs especially when raised together. You think those who keep pairs to breed are greedy? Are you nuts? Do you really think there’s money to be made breeding monitors? If so, give it try and let me know how it goes. The majority of people who breed monitors do it because they enjoy working with them so much. They also do it because they’d much rather support the hobby by producing captive born animals versus supporting the wild caught trade. There’s a real sense of accomplishment when eggs start hatching. I couldn’t imagine keeping a lone animal because I so enjoy observing the interaction of pairs/groups.

How many monitors have you observed in the wild? I’m guessing none? So, how do you come to your conclusion that they’re solitary animals. Maybe you’d prefer being locked in a room alone but I’ll take an occasionally bitchy female any day.



01/04/16  06:05pm

 #2316393


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: 3240   In reference to Message Id: 2316391


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

There isn’t real proof that monitors "need" to be with another monitor. Everyone should just appreciate the one they got and not keep adding more. Most varanids chase off other intruders when encountrered in their domain. You know this is true and correct, monitors are solitary with the exception of a few species. There are always examples to the contrary, but the majority are solitary. Frank cannot compare agamidae and iguanidae with varanids, just like comparing apples to oranges. One is neither good nor bad keeping reptiles, just interested and passionate. Going in circles, as retes puts it, about the need of affection is silly. Monitors brains aren’t as developed as primates or any social creatures because they do not have the range of social cues required to live in a group; with complex hierrarchy. Therefore their brains are no where near the same in structure as social creatures i.e. primates, dogs, parrots, and dolphins. Some people are animal hoarders and become too carried away with having one of each. You can at least see my point...Why else breed if not for money, are you going to care for a dozen or so new monitors? No, its simple you sell them for, in my opinion, way too much (especially dwarfs and tree monitors). Appreciation for the "one monitor" gets lost in our passion for all the variety, so we add and add to our little zoos. Maybe later I will introduce the opposite sex and see where it goes but for now we both will remain bachelors.



01/04/16  07:10pm

 #2316399


3240
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316393


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Define "real" proof. I’m guessing that you don’t have any experience keeping varanids, iguanas, or agamids? I’m guessing you haven’t spent time observing them in the wild? In other words, you’re making stuff up. You don’t think iguanas or agamids chase off rivals when they intrude on one another’s territory? All can be territorial and all are most certainly social.

So primates, dolphins, and parrots are examples of social animals because complex brain structures are necessary? Can you explain a school of fish?

No, I don’t see your point. And, believe it or not the vast majority don’t breed monitors for money.



01/04/16  11:24pm

 #2316400


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: 3240   In reference to Message Id: 2316399


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Take a chill pill, relax man. You can’t say a monitor or any reptile has a brain as complex as a dolphin, primate, etc. They do have social structures, not nearly as complex as most social creatures. Where is your proof, field observations and literature? Take a break, eat a sandwich and relax. Go back to varanus.net and circle jerk it with Franky. "Stop going in circles"....gosh



01/05/16  12:13am

 #2316403


3240
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316400


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Who’s saying a monitor has as complex a brain structure as a dolphin or primate?

People tend to name call when they don’t know what they’re talking about.



01/05/16  06:14am

 #2316409


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: 3240   In reference to Message Id: 2316403


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

People who know they are wrong tend to over react to a simple discussion. Pointing the finger also suggests guilt or insecurity in what one actually knows to be true. You suggested that varanids need to have a companion for their psychological well being, but yet to show proof one way or the other that strengthens such an assertion. All I’m saying is varanids don’t necessarliy need to bond as a parrot or primate does in order to live a full happy and healthy life. Someone has been feeding you misinformation or you just feel sorry for the reptile and stick another lizard in out of your own guilt. I know V.salvator, V.niloticus, V.komodoensis do live in large groups and do have social cues, language and customs; they do not necessarily need to be bonded. More like cats, they have territory, breed, leave, and fight. Watch the show "Lizard Kings" with DR. Erick Piaka, pretty sure he doesn’t discuss the complex social structures of varanids. He dicusses the five orders of magnitude in the physical size difference of varanids. Not the intricate and complex web of social hierrarchy within the family of varinidae.



01/05/16  11:55am

 #2316411


3240
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316409


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Stop putting words in my mouth. Where do I say they "need" to have a companion for their psychological well being? No one is feeding me misinformation, I speak from experience. I’ve kept and bred monitors for over 25 years. Your information comes from a TV show? Any actual experience keeping and breeding monitors besides your lone argus?



01/05/16  12:35pm

 #2316414


Mdf
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316409


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Charles if this is how you respond to keepers taking the time to give their long time experiences about a subject they’ve spent many hours studying in captivity and the wild, then I won’t bother trying to find answers to your question.

All I can say is you’ve been very rude.

If you have the experienced knowledge to start with why bother asking the question?? Frank has posted before about monitors in the wild been around in some form of social group other than komodo, 3240 has many years of experience in monitors & I’ve spent many hours over the years reading their postings in order to gain more knowledge that both FRank and 3240 and many others have posted, breeders of monitors breeding many generations of them.

If you have a backed up argument/ discussion about monitors social needs then post them with proof to back your findings up , like Frank did in the link I provided and has done in the past.

and i’m not one of his boy’s but I still respect what he has to say in the advancement and understanding of monitors in captivity.



01/05/16  12:50pm

 #2316418


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: Mdf   In reference to Message Id: 2316414


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Rude? He was attacking me! I know for a fact they are solitary primarily. His knowledge has not enriched me at all, he’s too busy being right and self righteous. Rude, no I was asking him to calm down, read how he addressed me. I guess you are gonna stand up for your friend then, whatever neither really matter anyway.



01/05/16  03:07pm

 #2316423


3240
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316418


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Charles,

You stated in your post that those who breed are greedy. Is that not an attack? One of the most ignorant posts I’ve ever read on a forum. Also, why do you assume I’m trying to enrich you?

You know for a fact they are solitary? No you don’t. You’ve simply read it somewhere but have observed nothing.



01/05/16  07:04pm

 #2316425


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: 3240   In reference to Message Id: 2316423


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Number 3420,

Stating that people are greedy for owning too many reptiles is a fact, deal with it. In no way was it an attack on you, you are being way too sensitive. Are you usually this hostile with people or is it because you’re hiding behind the internet? I have observed monitors being solitary, its nothing uncommon. What is uncommon is a pack of monitors roaming Africa like hyenas looking for their next meal.



01/05/16  07:51pm

 #2316428


3240
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316425


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Charles Lee Ray,

How are greed and owning reptiles related? I have a group of lace monitors. Does that make me greedy? Please explain.

You know why you’ve observed monitors being solitary? Because that’s how you keep them. So an animal has to roam in a pack, like a hyena, in order to be considered social? Nice one. You keep referring to parrots as an example of a social animal. Do parrots hunt like hyenas?

I’m not hostile. I just don’t like you. Deal with it.



01/05/16  09:31pm

 #2316430


Charles Lee Ray
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  Message To: 3240   In reference to Message Id: 2316428


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

Oh god, you don’t like me? What will I ever do? Are you retarded? On meth?



01/05/16  09:38pm

 #2316433


3240
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  Message To: Charles Lee Ray   In reference to Message Id: 2316430


 My Notes on Argus Breeding

No Charles. I’m just hostile.



01/05/16  09:59pm


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