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 #2175606


Gepeto
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 From Frozen to live food.

I’ve had my honduran milksnake for about a year now and she is over two feet long and about the width of a nickle at her fattest point. I’ve been feeding her frozen food this whole time trying to get her big enough to eat live mice. I was just wondering about how big around she will have to be before I feed her a live mouse and when I first introduce her to it, what do I need to do? Thanks



09/15/10  02:26pm

 #2175741


Peter54
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  Message To: Gepeto   In reference to Message Id: 2175606


 From Frozen to live food.

If you have a snake that accepts f/t mice, why would you ever want to change that? What if the snake doesn’t understand right away that the mouse will put up a fight for it’s life, and you end up with a dead snake instead of a dead mouse?

Over here it’s illegal to feed snakes with live prey animals. Nobody would ever try that other than with snakes refusing f/t mice.



09/16/10  12:50pm

 #2175814


Gepeto
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  Message To: Peter54   In reference to Message Id: 2175741


 From Frozen to live food.

I don’t want my snake to eat f/t food, because I think she deserves freshly killed warm food. At first, I’m not just going to put the mouse in, I will hold it by it’s tail and make sure it doesn’t attack my snake. Also, snakes have instincts, they can easily take a mouse. The only thing I would be worried about is the mouse biting one of her eyes, so thats why I’m going to hold the mouse my the tail until she attacks it.



09/16/10  11:16pm

 #2176236


Peter54
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  Message To: Gepeto   In reference to Message Id: 2175814


 From Frozen to live food.

Fresh pre-killed is the best of course. The snake’s instincts wont protect it if the mouse bites and it’s not very humane to the mouse either.

In my country you would be charged with animal cruelty doing that.



09/19/10  04:07pm

 #2177469


Gepeto
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  Message To: Peter54   In reference to Message Id: 2176236


 From Frozen to live food.

It’s illegal? That really sucks. I don’t see how that is anyway animal cruelty and how you think it’s inhumane. This happens everyday in the wild, and the mouse dies within a minute or two after the snake attacks. To many rediculous laws, with no point or purpous.



09/25/10  08:21pm

 #2177515


Peter54
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  Message To: Gepeto   In reference to Message Id: 2177469


 From Frozen to live food.

A mouse put in with a snake in a closed vivarium has no escape chance. A wild mouse always has the upper hand since only 1 of 10 snake attacks will be successful. That’s why it’s considered inhumane to put a live mouse in with the snake.



09/26/10  09:41am

 #2178992


Lovin2act
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  Message To: Gepeto   In reference to Message Id: 2175606


 From Frozen to live food.

If it eats f/t thawed then do not change it over to live. Your snake lives in a cage and to liken it to the life of a wild snake is ridiculous. Do some more research on why your arguments have no merit and be glad you have an animal that is so good to you. Be good to it now and keep it on f/t.



10/04/10  01:44pm

 #2180607


Snakebuz
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  Message To: Lovin2act   In reference to Message Id: 2178992


 From Frozen to live food.

In many countries and scocieties, different cultures and ideas rule. In all of them there is one easy fast rule: if the food prey is frozen/thawed it WILL NEVER bite the eye of your pet snake, additionally, it will have less possibility of passing parasites to your snake, as some parasites are killed in the freezing process. Not having to "catch" the mouse will allow the snake to lower his striking response, making handling a little easier, and it is a lot easier going to the freezer of your house every feeding time than to the petstore or having to keep a colony of mice around. The only reason I would figure someone would want to feed live is to watch the kill. You do as you wish, but frozen makes sense and is sooo much more convenient. Good luck, whichever you do.



10/12/10  12:07pm

 #2180620


Getscared
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  Message To: Gepeto   In reference to Message Id: 2175814


 From Frozen to live food.

Snakes do not care what the food tastes like. Frozen is cheaper, safer and more humane. There is absolutely no reason to swtich to live. That is backwards. a frozen mouse has all the same nutrients as a live one. If you want your snake to have a warm meal set the mouse on a heating pad after thawing it for a few minutes.. it will be warm.

"Snakes have instincts that can easily take a mouse"
An animal that is used to eating still prey may not know how to deal with live prey whether it has instincts or not. I have seen several snakes that take food gently out of the keepers hand and would have no idea what to do if the food actually fought them!
Your snake should count itself lucky that it doesnt have to work hard for its food.

I assure you your snake couldnt give a rats buttmunch (haha) whether or not the food is alive or dead.

As for size, your snake should eat appropriatly sized prey whether its live or dead. the size of the prey should be about the width of its body regardless.


Also one more thing. The injuries sustained by snakes at feeding usually occur AFTER the snake strikes the rodent. The mouse wont attack the snake out of no where but while the snake is holding it the mouse may be free to bite and scratch.

I feel like you deserve freshly killed meat too! so how about you go out in the feild and kill yourself a sheep? rather than eating that nasty frozen/cooked meat



10/12/10  01:18pm

 #2184378


BP Newb
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  Message To: Getscared   In reference to Message Id: 2180620


 From Frozen to live food.

On the "humane" issue - do any of you know how they kill the f/t mice? I don’t, but we don’t actually know it’s any better than with the snake, and it’s not like they have a better chance at surviving it. I once got a f/t mouse with blood on it’s nostrils. I don’t know how it died, but it got me thinking. I feed my BP live, because she won’t take f/t, and the mice die damned quick. I really doubt the lab death is quicker.

On the "healthier", "fewer parasites" issue - perhaps the freezing process helps kill parasites, but I like to look at the mice I’m feeding and see that they’re active and bright-eyed.

It’s true f/t is more convenient, and slightly less likely to hurt your snake, but I have been feeding mine three live mice at a time every three weeks for three years with no problems. Once she didn’t eat one of the mice, so I removed it. The mice are bred to be incredibly docile, so that they can be easily handled in the lab. They are unlikely to hurt your snake unless you leave them in the tank for long enough for them to start to starve. And yes, that would be inhumane.

One thing that the original poster said that IS stupid - do NOT hold the mouse by the tail for your snake. You’ll just get bitten. That’s dumb as hell. Your snake is perfectly capable of handling a mouse on its own. If it can eat the same size mouse f/t, then it can kill it on its own.



10/29/10  11:08am

 #2184836


Peter54
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  Message To: BP Newb   In reference to Message Id: 2184378


 From Frozen to live food.

Over here they use carbondioxide (CO2) to kill mice. I don’t think there are any parasites in captive bred mice.



10/31/10  06:57am

 #2190769


Concolor1
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  Message To: Peter54   In reference to Message Id: 2184836


 The Argument For Live Feeding I Find Persuasive...

Is that it helps the snakes maintain muscle tone. Being a bit of a tubby myself who doesn’t get enough exercise because of my stupid job, I can relate to that being a problem...

I just froze some extra surplus mice I’d raised, so I do either (and no way am I going to be bothered euthanizing pinkies and fuzzies for my smaller snakes; carbon dioxide suffocates them the same way as being swallowed alive--without being constricted).

I’m very careful when I feed a live adolescent or adult mouse to a snake; I know when the snake is hungry, and I monitor the situation (and I feed in separate containers). My snakes have always won in mouse-to-snake combat...

Those are my choices, however, and I’m a grown-up and not so narcissistic I try to force them on others... I recognize the wisdom of not permitting zoos to feed snakes while they’re on display (whether live or frozen), but that is a political decision. It’s hard enough to get people to appreciate serpents as it is.

BTW, Peter, do they have special animal cops in your country to arrest wild snakes for killing live prey?



12/03/10  02:09pm

 #2191055


Peter54
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  Message To: Concolor1   In reference to Message Id: 2190769


 The Argument For Live Feeding I Find Persuasive...

Concolor1
Silly question. I think that is not a valid comparison since the mouse/rat have no means of escaping in a terrarium, while the prey animal has all the advantages possible to escape the snake in the wild.



12/05/10  06:51am

 #2191140


Concolor1
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  Message To: Peter54   In reference to Message Id: 2191055


 Here’s a Little Science & History For You...

Snakes and lizards arose around 200 million years ago, which I suggest is pretty strong evidence that for all the "alleged advantages" possessed by their wild prey, they’ve done fairly well success-wise over the ages.

By contrast, rodents arose around 70 million years ago, which is barely over a third as long...

As for advantages, nature has endowed predators with superior strength, incredibly toxic venoms in a number of varieties, and sophisticated "radar" devices such as the pits on pit vipers and the Jacobson’s organ found on all snakes...

So stealth and camouflage tactics as well as biological warfare methods are used to neutralize prey animals’ superior speed, jumping ability, etc., and by golly, it works...

The evidence of this is seen by observing that rodents’ primary "survival mechanism" is probably their fecundity; they generally breed in astronomical numbers--as we all can see--and the issue is not the survival of a single mouse, rat, or rabbit, but rather the survival of species as a whole.

If it were really a matter of "fair play" then this phenomenon wouldn’t exist. Nature isn’t fair, and neither is humankind.

Yes it was a silly question, purposely so; my goal was to get people to "think outside the box." We as herp lovers learned to question and discard the world’s long-held prejudices against "loathsome snakes," but--JMHO--we ought not to succumb to equally prejudiced moralizing that possesses a similar flaw involving black-and-white judgments.

Now the issue I raised involved the suggestion that letting snakes constrict live prey may help them maintain muscle tone and improves their overall health and vitality.

Don’t we owe this to creatures under our care?

CC1
Getting ready for checkmate on this one...



12/05/10  03:08pm

 #2191343


Peter54
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  Message To: Concolor1   In reference to Message Id: 2191140


 Here’s a Little Science & History For You...

concolor1
I’m not going to get involved in any fundamental discussion about evolutionary aspects. That is not what all this is about. Instead it’s about several other factors involved with keeping reptiles, such as acceptance, ethics and morals, as well as making my hobby as easy going as possible, all aspects included.

I know that there are a few people who like to feed their snakes live prey animals just to "enjoy" the spectacle. However, most of us prefere to avoid that and protect our snakes from the risk of being injured or even killed by their food, and in doing so, even protect the prey animals from being stressed and/or perhaps tormented to death for no valid reason whatsoever.

The opinion that snakes would use up energy to kill a prey animal, rather than being able to eat without having to kill first, is to me a totally man made idea.

I have found your earlier postings here pretty much sound and sensible, but in this matter I think you are really spaced out …



12/06/10  04:05pm

 #2196541


Ghastly
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  Message To: Peter54   In reference to Message Id: 2191343


 Here’s a Little Science & History For You...

Not trying to interfere but live feed is generally made illegal due to the welfare of the prey. I know in my country (Norway) prey feed isn’t generally kept in too well living conditions along with as a previous poster stated the mouse/rat pup is in a confined cage therefore here it is classed as barbaric. In my eyes and many other snake keepers I know who would like to feed live would only do it IF they were not in the snake vivarium but in a large open room but Evan then the snake wouldn’t have a chance in catching his/her meal as the mouse/rat pup instinct would kick in causing it to flight as let’s face it a small creature against something like a snake it’s not going to fight for it’s life it’s going to move its butt like no tomorrow! Therefore placing it in the snake house isn’t exactly fair and as for holding it’s tail are you pulling our legs?! You can get bit by both prey and snake - prey being your not letting instinct kick in and run away and the snake being your hand/finger stinks of it’s food!

As for killing the food over here we have 3 methods the first being the most common then the last the least/rare method - Air embolism (injecting large air bubble into vein), freezing to death alive and then the CO2.



01/05/11  03:59pm


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