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 #1755293


Layla_ishtar
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 Hog Venom - heart problem? help please

Hey i usually post in the corn snake forum but today i went to the IHS show at the dome and fell in love with a hog. So i asked what their nature was like, how it was feeding etc etc. I found out everything, but the man did miss out the fact the snake has venom.

I know it isn’t very strong venom BUT i have a heart condition called pulmonary stenosis. I am just concerened that the venom coule be worse for me and could do extreme damage. For example if i have a tattoo and it turns bad like toxic or get blood poisoning or something it could kill me. Infections, poison and stuff go directly into my heart because of a leaking valve. Is the snakes venom, a venom which travels?

If i didn’t have this condition i would not be concerened at all.

Please put my mind at rest. Would you recomened selling it on? Or do you think i will be fine.
06/08/08  05:01pm

 #1755673


JackAsp
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   Message To: Layla_ishtar   In reference to Message Id: 1755293


 Hog Venom - heart problem? help please

I think that if you get bitten, you’ve got something to be concerned with. Whether or not that’s a likely occurance depends on how and what you feed, since the only thing you’ve really got to worry about is feeding accidents. Mine eats nothing but f/t, and she doesn’t even want it jiggled with tongs. Moving food scares the hell out of her. So since she doesn’t strike at moving objects, I’m safe unless I do something completely stupid like using the palm of my hand as a food dish, or reaching right in front of her face while she’s checking a mouse out. But if yours has a more aggressive and traditional eating style, then, yeah, you probably won’t get bitten OFTEN, but at some point over the next decade and a half it’s not phenomenally unlikely that you may at some point be tagged. And getting chomped by a hungry hognose is not the same as getting chomped by a hungry kingsnake or something.

They bite so rarely that the fact that they’re a little venomous often gets shrugged off as not even relevant, but feeding accidents do happen sometimes.

I feed dead prey in a seperate container, and I always bring the snake to the food rather than vice versa. I feed multiple prey items, but I put them all in there at once, so she does not get conditioned to expect more food whent he hand comes. On the rare occasions that there’s an uneaten mouse, I lift her out by the middle of the body, far enough from her head to avoid getting caught in the crossfire if she chooses that exact moment to start eating. Even all this wouldn’t be enough to guarantee finger safety except that she personally has that aversion to moving prey; most of them don’t though.

If you feed in-cage, you can keep your hands safe by using long tongs, if you use dead prey. With live food, using tongs is more difficult.

Plus, I suspect that feeding them live prey would tend to condition them to chew in more venom when they grab...

So how safe it is depends on both the snake’s eating habits and your willingness to not ever get lulled into a false sense of security and say "oh, what are the odds of getting bitten this time?" I have more than once seen mine run out of mice and try to eat her plastic feeding bucket, from the inside! So... not a species you want your hands near when they’re expecting food.
06/09/08  12:47am

 #1755742


Layla_ishtar
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1755673


 Hog Venom - heart problem? help please

Yeah i feed with feeding tongs and i feed frozen, i put the snakes in a feeding tub before hand, i don’t get my hands anywer near them.

It really is just a what if? Cos i what if (with something to do with this) for me could really be life threatning lol.
06/09/08  05:04am

 #1758470


JackAsp
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   Message To: Layla_ishtar   In reference to Message Id: 1755742


 Hog Venom - heart problem? help please

If you’re wiggling the tongs, then the fact that the snake is in a feeding bucket might not prevent your finger from getting bitten. Snake wants another mouse, thinks "Hey, maybe she’ll give me another mouse... hey, what’s that?" and bites your hand when you reach to put it back in the cage. It doesn’t happen a LOT, but it does happen on occasion.

In fact, there’s someone on the ball python forum who every time feeding buckets are mentioned starts ranting that there is no possible way a snake in a cage can mistake your hand for food, but in a feeding bucket they will. Simply because the one time she tried it, she did it by bringing food to the snake instead of the other way around, so when she reached in she got bitten.

I hate to tell anybody who’s taking good care of a hognose to get rid of it, because they’re so damned cute, but if it’s life-threatening.. yeah. They aren’t cute enough to die for. A few hardasses with pet rattlers might claim otherwise, but there’s a difference between keeping a dangerous snake as a pet and, say, climbing a mountain. The mountain isn’t going to starve or get destroyed by animal control if they fall off of it.



06/11/08  11:25pm

 #1807521


Adam_S
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   Message To: JackAsp   In reference to Message Id: 1758470


 Here’s another angle

As a general rule, it is good to keep all saliva (including reptile saliva) out of your bloodstream. If you have a heart condition, it is probably especially important to reduce the risk of animal bites. In my own limited experience, hognose snakes are the least likely of any snake I’ve kept to bite my skin in defense, I’ve been bitten by corns, kings, garters, waters, and carpet pythons, but have never been bitten in defense by a hognose snake, and have handled FAR more hognose snakes than any other snake. So if my intention is to keep potential polutants (including tattoo ink and animal saliva) out of my bloodstream, a hognose snake is on my safe list. There are probably cases where a person has had a life-threatening reaction to a hognose snake bite, but I haven’t heard of any ... I can’t say the same for Garter snake bites.

Adam



07/24/08  04:53pm

 #1809401


Snakebuz
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   Message To: Adam_S   In reference to Message Id: 1807521


 Here’s another angle

A "strike" from a hog wouldn’t be a factor I would worry about even with your condition. They have to work their silava in by working their teeth, unless you already had an open sore. The teeth (besides the rear fangs) on a medium sized hog would just barely break the skin anyway. Thats if you are thin skinned. You wouldn’t let one chew on you anyway. I know of no one ever bitten by either a eastern or a western. I’m sure there has to be someone somewhere that has been bitten by one, I have never heard of it though. I’ve been catching and raising for about forty years now. Enjoy the little guy. He’ll be good to and for you.
07/26/08  12:31pm

 #1835651


Wat
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   Message To: Snakebuz   In reference to Message Id: 1809401


 Here’s another angle

:|

A hognose venom evolved to kill amphibians, and it doesn’t even do that, it just makes them placid so the hog can eat him with less of a struggle. i find it funny how everyone is like "LUL U SHULD BE SRSLY CONCRNED" probably without knowing what pulmonary stenosis is. Basically, hes heart isn’t getting enough blood to his lungs. From what i understand about hognose venom the only serious side effects have been some severe allergic reactions, something EVERYONE in the forum has to watch out for if they’re keeping hogs. The vemon isn’t constricting any blood vessels so that isn’t going to complicate his condition. Nor is hog venom active even if it DOES reach the blood stream (which unless you let it chew on you for awhile.. thats a rare occasion) because amphibian biochemistry varies so wildly from mamal biochemistry. The hog venom
makes the frog placid by blocking some neuro receptors, and since the vemon is specialized to kill amphibians, its only going to fit in the neuro receptors of amphibians. This isn’t like the vemon of elapidae or vipridae, it isn’t causing immediate cell death or cataclysmic blockage of the CNS, this is almost like a drug specific to frogs. and as such the chemical will do NOTHING to humans unless your allergic to it. Which, may i re-iterate, is a risk we ALL take owning hognoses’.

tl;dr you’ll be fine buy the snake.
08/18/08  10:13pm

 #1864389


Bruno Bear
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   Message To: Wat   In reference to Message Id: 1835651


 Here’s another angle

Hi,
Another theory I have come across is that hogs derive their venom from the poisonous amphibians they eat, as most hogs are captive bred and fed rodents, it is believed that the venom is much less anyway, virtually non existant. Obviously i cant comfirm that but thought it worth a mention.
My hog strike regular but over the last 7 yrs she has NEVER opened her mouth, simply head-butts you.
If you take sensible precautions when feeding i see no reason why you shouldn’t keep a hog.
May be a word with your doctor or even contact the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, I’m sure they would be able to help you.
Did you enjoy the IHS show as the Dome, I didnt get the chance to go.

Bruno
09/20/08  07:42pm

 #1869259


Adam_S
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   Message To: Bruno Bear   In reference to Message Id: 1864389


 Here’s another angle

Bruno, nice post, I agree, these guys won’t bite unless they think they’re eating. Where did you come across the idea that hognose might derive venom from amphibian prey? --Adam
09/27/08  11:43am


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