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 #2206701


Carpmoto
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 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

OK folks...just purchased a baby (4in body) male veiled cam. My experience is with corns and beardies...so I’m not a newbie to reptiles. I know the little guys like lots of foliage, I also have a drip watering device already as well.

What I want to do is get one cage that will house my new friend for life. So I’m looking at various styles of screened enclosures, the traditional upright versions or the new horizontal ones. I’m wondering which is more "natural" if there is such a thing. Size wise I’m thinking...

Upright should be... 24in (60cm) x 24in (60cm) x 36in (100cm) or is 18in x 18in x 36in (one size smaller) is good enough?

or

Horizontal...18in H x 18in D x 36in L/W or do I need bigger 24in H x 24in D x 48in L/W

Looking for experienced advice on this and any other insider info on veiled’s...Thanks everyone, JC



02/24/11  01:21pm

 #2206711


LunaC
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  Message To: Carpmoto   In reference to Message Id: 2206701


 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

Chams are arboreal. Vertical height is always more important than width. They like to be as high off the ground as they can.

My adult Veileds and Panthers are in both the 18 X 18 X 36 and 24 X 24 X 48 verticals.

Babies always go in smaller cages (12 x 12 x 18, generally) until they are juveniles. Smaller cages for babies are important in that you can regulate their temps, humidity and food intake better.



02/24/11  02:05pm

 #2206721


Jonas77
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  Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2206711


 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

It sound like its not really a baby, rather a "juvenile".

I think (I really dont know a good word for this, in sweden we call it "inredning" and it involves everything you put inside the cage; branches, flowers stone background, etc etc.) "inredning" is the key. You can keep a small chameleon in the same cage as you would an adult one, but the "inredning" would have to be proportional, more dense.

You also have to weigh in a biological aspect known as "different life stage strategies", meaning taht juveniles and adults dont necessarily live the same lifestyle. As a young and small chameleon its important to hide and be "invisible", since you have no way to fight predators. When you grow up to be a force to be reckoned with, your new strategy would be to fight or threaten the predator. With this inn mind, its easy to understand that most reptile juveniles need more dense and sheltering "inredning". More hiding spots. Biologically they feel more vulnerable, its in their genes...

I understand what Luna means with smaller cages being easier to controll, meaning it takes less energy to heat them up and so on, BUT I would have to say that I think its much easier to get a stable controllable temperature in a larger cage.
Make an experiment: Try to keep an exact temperature (withing two degrees) in your room, and try to do the same in a blown up plastic bag with a thermometer in it.

It would go faster to reach a desired level in the bag, but that goes both ways. Time is also a factor here, you can over heat a small cage soo fast, you never know what hit it compared to a large one.

There is a myth out there, that young/small animals must be kept in small cages or they get stressed, but then one have not understood what I just wrote. A cage can never be too big. Think about nature... Its big any way you put it.
The difference is, in nature young/small animals choose a more dense/secure habitat that fit their current life strategy. Put them in an huge empty cage, and you take that from them. Put them in a huge but appropriately "inredd" cage, and they will thrive.

Good luck.



02/24/11  03:18pm

 #2206728


LunaC
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  Message To: Jonas77   In reference to Message Id: 2206721


 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

Quote:

Think about nature... Its big any way you put it.
The difference is, in nature young/small animals choose a more dense/secure habitat that fit their current life strategy



Well said, Jonas (long time no see - hope all is well!)

That is exactly why I use smaller cages for smaller chams. A more secure/dense habitat. I’m also one of those illogical people that thinks it might be easier for a baby to hunt in a smaller habitat. Of course, there are no scientific facts or studies to back that - just my illogical brain. :)



02/24/11  03:50pm

 #2206763


Carpmoto
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  Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2206728


 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

Good stuff and thanks Jonus and LunaC...I have found a great deal on a 18x18x36...will that be a good size to keep "Boris" in even when he becomes an adult?



02/24/11  06:14pm

 #2207016


LunaC
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  Message To: Carpmoto   In reference to Message Id: 2206763


 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

36" tall should be okay, yes. Good luck with Boris :)



02/26/11  10:36am

 #2207660


Sirexzilla
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  Message To: LunaC   In reference to Message Id: 2206711


 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

YEAH DONT KEEP ANY BABY CHAM IN ANYTHING HIGHER THAN 2FOOT CUZ THEY CAN B CLUMSY AND FALL. MY FRIENDS MOM OWNS MY LOCAL PET SUPPLIES PLUS AND SHE SAID UNTILL THIER ABOUT 6-8 INCHS THEY CAN BE SAFELY KEPT IN A 20G ABOREAL FISHTANK WITH A SECURE LID.



03/01/11  07:19pm

 #2207876


Jonas77
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  Message To: Sirexzilla   In reference to Message Id: 2207660


 Enclosure advice - Veiled cam

Falling is not a problem, many chameleons even use this as a defense, and a lot more than two feet in nature.

Its actually a case of physics involved here. I actually took a university course that looked on the physics aspect of animals, their size and how it effect them in their surrounding.

Here is a fact: You can drop a mouse from the top of a ten storey building, and it will most probably survive. It will not accumulate more speed from ten storeys than from one storey.

The smaller an animal get, the more surface area their body have in proportion to their volume, in the mouse example, their volume and weight in proportion to their surface area makes it impossible to gain enough speed to cause death due to wind resistance. Then we have density; a bee flying in air wold "experience" the same feeling we would have "flying" in water.

So, in conclusion, I dont feel to worried about chameleons falling. Even if you have a ten feet cage, the drop would not be ten feet due to all the branches and plants it is bound to hit on the way down. If not, its time to fill the cage with more branches and plants...

I often mention how things are "in nature", and even though everything in nature don’t HAVE to be better for an animal, nature often give a hint to how things work. There would be a huge evolutionary pressure towards being able to survive a fall for arboreal animals for example.



03/03/11  07:12am


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