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 #2253822


Xkabx
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 Baytril not totally working

i brought my hog island boa to the vet in december for an ri, the vet said to treat her long term with baytril, he said 30 daily injections followed by 15 every other day then every third day for a month. we are almost done the every other day round and still i see spit and hear her breath. i had a chance to get my hands on some fortaz and wanted an opinion on if i should use it. i want to carry out what the vet said and finish this month of every other day with baytril, but then i want to give her baytril skip a day then fortaz this way she gets both meds every 3 days. id run this by the vet but he is a deuchebag that wont return my emails or phone calls, he got paid thats all he cares about, kinda crappy but i have to figure this out on my own now so any help or advice is greatly appreciated.



02/03/12  01:15pm

 #2254142


ShadowAceD
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2253822


 Baytril not totally working

No animal really should be on anti-biotics for a period of more than six weeks, this is human or otherwise.

Your boa has likely developed an immunity to Baytril and her immune system is compromised as Baytril is a very rigorous anti-bitotic and it may have destroyed much more than it should have from long term use. Baytril is not meant for long time use. Whatever vet. you took the animal to is out of their mind for prescribing Baytril for that long.

If the animal has had this infection since December despite being on the Baytril, that is not a good sign.

You need a second opinion ASAP. I would not start anything else until then and I would quit the Baytril.

Bump the heat, drop the humidity. Find another vet.



02/06/12  07:17am

 #2254157


Xkabx
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  Message To: ShadowAceD   In reference to Message Id: 2254142


 Baytril not totally working

she has gotten better since starting the baytril, her energy is through the roof, never seen her move like this before. but still the wheezing. im sorry our first encounter went the way it did, and thank you for being the bigger person and offering help to me again. what did you mean by drop the humidity?



02/06/12  10:18am

 #2254165


ShadowAceD
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2254157


 Baytril not totally working

I’m sure the Baytril has helped, but this long into treatment, I highly doubt it is being effective at all anymore. The body eventually quits allowing anti-biotics to work when they are present for too long and the anti-biotics themselves kill off the immune system’s ability to fight things on its own.

Bacteria, which is the root cause of infection, breed better in mid-range temps and high humidity. When a snake is suspected of having a RI, bumping the temperature and lowering the humidity levels gives the bacteria less of a chance to reproduce and spread. In most instances, when caught early, this can eliminate a RI or other minor infections, but once it takes root, all it does it delay the process, which is necessary in treatment.

Finding a way to lower the humidity can be as simple as giving a smaller water bowl and moving it as far away from the heating elements as possible.



02/06/12  11:11am

 #2254201


Xkabx
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  Message To: ShadowAceD   In reference to Message Id: 2254165


 Baytril not totally working

the only person to back the first vet is another vet i heard on a radio show, dr. stahl said baytril should be given for a minimum 30 days, but now im way passed that. i think the vet took into consideration how long she has been sick and figured id have to treat her for a long time before she got better but failed to consider her tiny organs. when injecting a snake what do you recommend?, he told me to inject her the entire length of her body all the way down to just before the tail, all the reading i have done has said only inject the snake in the first third of the animal , the injections near the tail prolly did nothing for her but damage her organs. i really think the vet i went to wasnt all that knowledgable in snakes and treating them, funny he charged me as if he was god.
ive had her humidity at between 60 and 70% what do you say i should aim for?



02/06/12  01:28pm

 #2254282


ShadowAceD
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2254201


 Baytril not totally working

I’d drop the humidity to around 40% and push the temperature to 90-91. But this is not a permanant solution.

Your boa may end up needing to be nebulized which is a process by which liquid anti-biotics are placed in a nebulizer in order to become a "gas" to be inhaled while the animal is placed in a box for thirty minutes. Generally, this is done twice a day.

As for Baytril for 30 days, that is misused/outdated advice. I have never put an animal on it for more than fourteen days, either my own animal, or animals I was treating while working at PetSmart. Many reptile specific vets. are trying to get away from it as it is due to how potent it is and how dangerous it ca be. Many animals can develop what is called "Baytril" burns at the injection site that tend to not be affected by Baytril itself.

Injecting the animal the entire length of its body is odd and useless.

When injecting my animals, I find the thickest most muscular part of the body (typically the center) and when I put the needle in, I do it at an angle beneath a scale. The injection needs to go into a very "meaty" part to avoid burns, organ perforation or other complications. I move the injection site around, but I do not move from that general area.



02/06/12  07:53pm

 #2254311


Xkabx
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  Message To: ShadowAceD   In reference to Message Id: 2254282


 Baytril not totally working

i first heard about nebulizing on a snake bytes video, they use f10, i even went out and got some. correct me if im wrong but isnt nebulizing used at the first sign of an ri, i figured she was so far past first sign that all id be doing is stressing her out, but if you think its worth a shot i still have the f10 and can get a fogger here tomorow.
as far as the baytril burns i was nervous everytime i poked her, she is so beautiful and i saw some nasty pics, thankfully there isnt a mark on her



02/07/12  12:51am

 #2254332


ShadowAceD
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2254311


 Baytril not totally working

If you ate still hearing labored breaths and seeing excessive saliva, she could still have a RI, there is not much else that causes those symptoms. Larger boas can be heard breathing just because they are large, but seeing mucous or excessive saliva is not normal. She still should see a second vet. for their opinion.

Can you take any pics of her mouth open?



02/07/12  06:25am

 #2254381


Xkabx
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  Message To: ShadowAceD   In reference to Message Id: 2254332


 Baytril not totally working

the saliva isnt there all the time any more, its like she gets all worked up then i see a bit prettty much whenever i take her out of her tank, when she is in there i dont see any. hearing her breathing has gone from the air brakes on a bus to little short almost like moans. my plan is to try and feed her tonight so im not going to bug her right now to try and get pics, but if she doesnt eat i do have a probe set ive been using to open her mouth so i figure i can get it open and have my bro take some pics, but im really hoping she eats so hopfully i cannot get you pics for a few days but if she doesnt ill get some up tonight.



02/07/12  01:19pm

 #2254438


Xkabx
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2254381


 Baytril not totally working

she didnt eat so i got in there and i was surprised at how good it looked in this first pic there is only 1 strand of saliva where last month it was a sheet from top jaw to bottom


thats the best quality pic i could get, she has so much energy but thats a good thing, last time i tried to get in her mouth was way easier and that was right around the time i started treating her. here are some of the rest of the pics i got, pretty much just to show you the color.




after her not eating i was not happy but after getting in her mouth and feeling her energy im still seeing progress, the breathing sounds have changed from a deep hard wheeze to a gentle puffffff. i didnt get ahold of my buddy with the fogger today i will try again tomorow.


how does she look to you?



02/07/12  06:24pm

 #2254491


ShadowAceD
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2254438


 Baytril not totally working

I forgot the extent of the damage to your boas nose. It is not unreasonable to surmise she has permanent damage to her nostrils and nasal cavities and that is causing the loud breathing sounds and excessive saliva on occassion.

I’d stop the anti-biotics immediately. I am 99% positive they are doing more harm than good to her right now.

Nebulizing her a bit wouldn’t be harmful.

As a precaution, I would maintain higher temps for at least a week or so.

Bring her back down to normal temps, raise the humidity again and keep an eye on her.

When is the last time she ate and what was it?



02/07/12  11:11pm

 #2254500


Xkabx
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  Message To: ShadowAceD   In reference to Message Id: 2254491


 Baytril not totally working

the nose may be the root cause of all of this. when it happened it clogged her nose causing mouth breathing allowing bacteria to do what they do and now we are here, thats a fear of mine. im pretty certain that the nostrils are not clogged but it could cause a louder than normal breathing sound i guess.
her mouth looked pretty good right? i could email you the pics so you can zoom in on them, there is bubbles in there but no where near the sevarity it was in say november.
as for feeding i kept a log and after i read your post asking i looked into it and she ate pretty regularly the whole time i had her, 7-10 days between meals 200-300 grams (f/t or f/k) right up until treatment began. she ate 2 days before i started treating her (280 grams) then didnt eat for 43 days, she was in rough shape so i went smaller it was only 81 grams, that was jan 22 she hasnt had anything since.
as far as nebulizing am i right 1ml of F10 to 1 litre of water? or is f10 what you would use?



02/08/12  12:43am

 #2254515


ShadowAceD
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2254500


 Baytril not totally working

From the pics it appears there is significant scar tissue in her nostrils and I do not think anything is ever going to improve that.

Her mouth does appear slightly irritated and is a bit more "red" than I would deem normal, but, again, this can be related to how much effort she has to put into breathing. Think of it how someone’s mouth and throat becomes irritated when suffering from nasal inflamation.

The Baytril can be causing her to feel "icky" and that is the reason she is refusing food. Anti-biotics are known to upset stomachs. As for the nebulizing, I will admit to not being sure what kind of treatment needs to actually be used because I cannot remember what was given to me the last time I had to use one on an animal. Ironically, it was a Hog Island suffering from a severe RI.

She really needs to be brought to a vet. with a lot of experience with reptiles or even see if you can convince a keeper from a zoo or local herp organization to look at her.

Wish I could help more than that.



02/08/12  07:14am

 #2254532


Xkabx
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  Message To: ShadowAceD   In reference to Message Id: 2254515


 Baytril not totally working

i was worried the meds stopped working but after yesterday im sure she has made progress. my plan is to finish this round of meds its 2 more shots, ill get the nebulizer for her tonight and ive heard you can do it with just water so ill do that just to be safe, im thinking of it as when you put a vaporizor in your room to loosen a stubborn chest cold. the 2 more shots takes us to saturday ill try feeding again monday if she doesnt eat off to the other vet we go.
kinda crazy i was looking for someone with experience in ri’s and you come along, you have been a great help, the only way you could have helped more was if you actually came here so thank you . how did your hog do with the nebulizing? did it recover? thats another way youve helped me, you got that back in my head, i totally pushed that thought aside you made me come back to it and i think it may help her even if just a little.



02/08/12  12:39pm

 #2254540


ShadowAceD
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  Message To: Xkabx   In reference to Message Id: 2254532


 Baytril not totally working

I help when I can, if I can.

She recovered fine, but she had to be nebulized twice a day for thirty days, had to be given anti-biotic injections for two weeks and a few other things.

I rehomed her about four months later because she had the most horrific attitude and I didn’t have time to deal with her. I only picked her up to get her away from the people that had her anyway.

Keep me updated.



02/08/12  01:12pm

 #2254559


Xkabx
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  Message To: ShadowAceD   In reference to Message Id: 2254540


 Baytril not totally working

i worry about this girl not liking me too much after all of this, i can already see it , she used to turn to see me when i went in her cage now she turns away. nothing aggressive but i can see she isnt happy to see me anymore.
i have snake like the one you spoke of, got her from an idiot, saved her before he did anything could happen, i dont understand how someone could go out and get any animal and not care enough to research alittle and learn what it needs.
thanks again
i will keep you posted.



02/08/12  03:35pm


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