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 #2107502


Deadvenom-x
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 A Little Stripe Rant

Not trying to bug anyone, but Stav pretty much proved Khal line to be dominant

From Stav himself:

Quote:

Recessive Stripes ? I dont think sooooooo !
Hi again ....

Remember my pair of het albino Khal full stripers I bought not last year but the year before that turned out to be 2 males ???

Remember when I was saying I dont mind ... and i’m more than happy because i never saw in so many years of breeding ( Not khal stripes ) a partial striped or whatever abherant ( what ever you wanna call them ) not show in the first generation when bred to a normal ?

I should be in heaven but i’m not ...... i’m not because it gets me sad to see how much crap there is on the net . Look on K.S how many people breed het striped boas ........ look at how many of them hets "already have " a part of striped or alot of striping ...... look in their litters they have in the first generation " stripers" no matter the amount of stripe......

Look at how many supposingly breeders pop out everyday saying they have 100 years experience ..... those same breeders that breed those supposingly hets , but never saw the dominance in them because they bought them as " hets " and not dominants , they dont even question their results and still advertise them as hets when its time to sell even if they had striped ones in the litter ..... It show how many people have a " NAME " just because of the amount of money they spent buying their high end boas ..... not because of the 100 yrs experience they have ....

Anyways here are some pics ....... of the DOMINANCE ...... some of you and in the states " some Big headed breeders " called me weirdo and that I was on pills in private when we discussed the dominant/recessive thing of "stripers" or "Abherants " call them whatever you wanna call them ....being dominant because I never saw any stripe , connected pattern , partial stripe or full stripe that never showed up in the first generation in boas ..... and this since I breed boas ....

Anyways who am i again to argue ........ I think again i’m gonna sell the "normals " ( with no abherancies ) as hets more or for more selling capability .... just to go with the net flow .... ...... where is the raised midle finger Icon ?

Here’s the pics ... enough bull****

Its a female I was keeping that I got from my friend Vlad .... She is connected to the female that gave the 2 paradox at his place ( the one he was supposed to sell me after she gave birth .... that for verrrrrrrrry good reason he’s gonna keep now ........ I’m raising a group of those because this is another thing i’m sure its genetic and that needs to be proven .... I think it mught be dbl or triple or quadruple recessive .... this would explain the sporadic paradoxes that pop out from time to time with no constancy ) .... the line that gave 4 in total .....

i’m soo convinced that more paradox are gonna come out of there at one point that I bought that female for 1000$ + half of this litter ..... ( I offered not Vlad asking soo much to make thing clear ... )

I will never thank Vlad enough for selling it too me

Nick .... yours is gravid now and looks good as well

Khal Dominants striped

The pics ....

The birth ...




The litter .... well without the surprises



For size...



Striped 1 stillborn..



Striped 2 top shape..



Albino Striped







If you want to read more go to Link you need to sign up first.


My stripey goodness from this exact litter:

Nemesis - female G-stripe aka Broken Stripe or what some like to call the "supposed" het stripe




Zyphin my male G-stripe aka Partial Stripe or the "supposed" het stripe



12/23/09  10:45am

 #2108099


Bciaddict
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  Message To: Deadvenom-x   In reference to Message Id: 2107502


 A Little Stripe Rant

Just saw this and wanted to drop a quick response....

The Kahl line is recessive...proven by many many people. A kahl stripe x normal (no known striped) will yield normals all het for stripe. The original pairs that Kahl put together did not produce stripes until they were bred back to each other (and to the parents)....that means it’s recessive. Now that was back in the early ’90s. But there might be other factors in the Kahl stripes these days... how many are "pure Kahl stripe" anymore???

How many have been bred into hypos and produced stripes...or jungles...or motleys...etc....which are morphs that are known to create pattern anomalies? The hypo gene, the jungle gene, the motley, gene, even some pastel genes create striping...how does that factor in when bred to a Kahl stripe (or het)???

There are also a lot of hets and possible hets that were sold over the years that were not advertised as being hets... Let’s say you have a visual stripe and one of those (an unknown het) and produce stripes... that would throw off what you thought the results should be and make it seem as though the striping was dominate if you didn’t realize that the non-visual het was just a normal....

I’ve seen this with albinos and even anerys recently. People are dropping the "possible het" part and selling them as normals. Some one buys one of these critters (let’s say an unknown albino het for this example) and breeds it to an albino they will produce albinos...now they think they spontaneously created a new type of albino...

There are tons of aberrant (striped) boas that are a product of the jungle and hypo genes some of that may factor into the the Kahl stripes but I think much is actually unrelated....

If you breed a Bristow stripe to a Kahl, the babies will have striping... but not because the Kahl line is dominate...but because the Bristow line is....

Amie



12/26/09  11:29am

 #2108107


Dragonwulf75
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  Message To: Bciaddict   In reference to Message Id: 2108099


 A Little Stripe Rant

Wow thats amazing. All I know about the boas and the stripe gene is oooo aaahhhhh pretty.Bciaddict I wish you lived here in Wenatchee Washington. I would love to come to your house and help with cage cleaning and such in exchange for learning some of the vast knowldge you have of snakes.



12/26/09  12:24pm

 #2108119


Bciaddict
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  Message To: Dragonwulf75   In reference to Message Id: 2108107


 A Little Stripe Rant

LOL!! I wish I had someone like yourself near me willing to help clean all of these cages! :)

Amie



12/26/09  01:09pm

 #2108146


Shane333
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  Message To: Bciaddict   In reference to Message Id: 2108119


 A Little Stripe Rant

im in nj ur not too far id come clean ur cages to learn some crazy stuff you know about i have 2 hypo redtails lol idk know much about how they got hypo or even what it means haha i just know they are gorgeous n i have a ball python i wanna start breeding one day in the NEAR future but dont know how or where to start or anything about it i love snakes had em my hole life n around me i know enough to tell a little about them n how to keep them alive lol



12/26/09  05:15pm

 #2108337


Bciaddict
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  Message To: Deadvenom-x   In reference to Message Id: 2107502


 A Little Stripe Rant

A couple more random thoughts...

The info on Kingsnake is not the "gospel according to boas". It is not the be-all-end-for information. Yes there is good (even great information) there but there is a lot of b.s. too.

Secondly there are people that assume that if a boa is striped it HAS TO be the Kahl line...that is not so.

Third, if you’re going to try to disprove a well-know, well established morph that many people have worked very hard to prove and for which someone has made a name for himself, you better be darned sure that your animals are without a doubt from that line and can be traced to the direct descendants of that line...not a "word-of-mouth-friend-of-a-friend-said-so" deal. The Kahl line was proven 18 years ago...one or two recent breedings is not enough to disprove an established morph!

After 18 years...who’s to say that some other aberrancies (proven or unproven) haven’t been bred into the line which may have affected Stav’s outcome?

I revert back to what I said originally about hypos, motleys, jungles, etc effecting the outcomes. Of the established morphs, striping has occurred in:

F3 inferno pastels, jungles, strungles, , cungles, Sharp albinos, orangetail and salmon hypos, motleys, stripobesques, blood boas, Marron pastels, magma stripes, harlequins, paradigms, sunsets (and many hypos Hogs), Conley super stripes, Bristow stripes, leopards, super aztecs,...just to name a few....

That’s not including the unknown Bcc X Bci breeding that have occurred using imported striped Guyanas, Bolivians, Brazilians, etc....what about those possible het babies? Or the breeding that used one of these imports and a Kahl to check for compatibility? Many times, if they don’t prove out in one or two breeding the project is abandoned without really proving or disproving anything.....

And it’s not touching the boas that have nothing more than an elongated tail saddle that some would actually misinterpret to be as weak stripe.

Any of the siblings from ANY of those litters could carry striping whether they are visual stripes or not....and every one of them is likely to affect the outcome when bred to a known Kahl stripe (either visual, or het).

How about the fact that you NEVER see 2% possible hets for anything..you know they are out there...just the "possible het" part was dropped a long time ago but it doesn’t change that fact that the possibility IS THERE!! Basically once the probability of being a het drops below 50% the "possible" part is dropped for the description but that doesn’t change the boa’s genetic predisposition.

Over the course of the past eighteen years it is entirely possible for some to have gotten a non-visual definite het from Pete, bred it to a normal and produced all normals 50% het for Kahl stripe. Now take one of those normals and breed it to another normal (or even the normal from the first breeding) and produce more normal appearing babies, but now they have less of a chance of being het (closer to 25%)...but they may still be hets! Now take one of those normal appearing babies and breed it to a normal...you will get all normals again, this time they will only have about a 13% chance of carrying the stripe gene...but it is still a chance that one or more do carry it! Now, let’s say one of those babies is bred to a visual het...just for giggles, we’ll say full striper for this example, if stripes are produced it can be easily misinterpreted that the stripe is dominate....when in fact the breeder just hit upon the most unlikely of odds that the normal appearing boa (the 13% possible het) was actually a het....

See what I’m getting at???

But bottom line is, a direct descendant from the Schram stripe female when bred to a normal yields normal appearing babies het for stripe...which makes them recessive!

I guess I sort of went off on a tangent there...sorry about that for those that actually read this whole thing :) I get a little long-winded sometimes.



12/27/09  12:47pm

 #2108343


Deadvenom-x
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  Message To: Bciaddict   In reference to Message Id: 2108337


 A Little Stripe Rant

Quote:

After 18 years...who’s to say that some other aberrancies (proven or unproven) haven’t been bred into the line which may have affected Stav’s outcome?



He got his male stripe from Khal himself. The female was a normal het albino. This wasnt just recently but a few years ago. I spoke to Stav personally about this multiple times. (we are good friends). I just dont see how a boa that is het stripw shows the visible traits? Not trying to be rude, but I have a feeling if it was Jeff Ronne instead of being Stav everyone would be Ooing and ahhing. Stav isnt a low-ball breeder at all. Maybe in the USA but definitely not in Canada. I fully trust Stav with his boas.



12/27/09  01:01pm

 #2108579


Bciaddict
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  Message To: Deadvenom-x   In reference to Message Id: 2108343


 A Little Stripe Rant

Actually I argue with Jeff quite often :)

Yes, a het can have a visual stripe too, IF that visual stripe is not genetically related to the Kahl stripe. That’s the point I was trying to get across.

Take for example a harlequin. Harlequins produce stripes occasionally. Not every time...more of a random occurance. Now if you were to take a harlequin line boa (with or without a visible stripe) and breed it into the Kahl stripe line, those babies may be carrying the stripe from the harlequin line in them which could show up in any of their future litters, whether they are bred to another stripe or not.

You can have a jungle with a stripe that is het for the Kahl stripe. It would be het for two different unrelated types of striping.

It’s possible that the stripe that Stav got could be from one of Pete’s jungle litters....or any other litter that could have a random stripe gene in it.

And the het albino could also have the recessive stripe in her. Most Kahl albinos do. There are tons of them that have been produced over the years, because the Kahl stripe line produces albinos with better color contrast.

And I am aware that Stav is a well known breeder....I’m not trying to discredit him...just his theory that the Kahl stripe line has been proven to be dominate when it hasn’t.

And people do sell boas with stripes as hets....one is that if it is a visual stripe than it’s positively het for stripe. Like saying a hypo is het for hypo...it’s redundant but true.

Amie



12/28/09  08:14am

 #2109189


Bciaddict
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  Message To: Bciaddict   In reference to Message Id: 2108579


 A Little Stripe Rant

Here are a few more things that I wanted to add for anyone still interested in this thread:

The very first breeding that Peter Kahl did with a striped female and an Kahl albino yielded NO albinos and No stripes, they were all double hets. They stripes and striped albinos were produced when one of the babies was bred back to the mother...that’s usually how recessive traits are proven/disproven. If the Kahl stripe was dominate than statistically half of the albino x stripe litter should have had stripes.

How about another later example...another one of Pete’s breedings....This one is from a striped calico het albino female and an albino arabesque male.....22 babies, 0 stripes....no dominance in this example.



I have a few questions concerning Stav’s breedings. For one, how many breedings has he done to "disprove" the Kahl line. And how many generations of breedings has he done? How far back has he checked the lineage of his boas?

It is entirely possible that there are stripes that are completely compatable with the Kahl stripe. Think of it this way....

We all know that the Sharp strain of albinism is recessive. But you take a completely unrelated Boawoman "hypo" (also recessive) and breed them together you get albinos in the first generation. Now this doesn’t change the fact that both the Boawoman hypo/caramel gene and the Sharp albino gene are recessive....but because they are on the same allele they create albinos.

To prove my point that sometimes it’s difficult to tell the difference visually from different lines of striping....here’s a challenge for whomever wishes to accept:

Of these four boas, which are Kahl stripes and which are co-dom stripes?









Amie







12/30/09  08:16am


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