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Leos for life View Profile |
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| 08/15/08 02:19pm |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: Leos for life In reference to Message Id: 1831880 Enclosure size
If you don’t want to buy another tank, you shouls buy a 41 qt tub, those are only $8 and generally, bps do better in them than in tanks. |
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| 08/15/08 03:28pm |
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Brembo View Profile |
Message To: Leos for life In reference to Message Id: 1831880 Enclosure size
I have always used a method that works for my snakes. I used it for my all my snakes. I am new to balls, but this is by no means my first snake. Basically the snake needs room to move to stay healthy. Too small a space and the snake can bloat, lose good muscle tone (most people can’t tell if it has, but your vet can), and end up being lathargic and unfulfilled. Would you want to be shoved into a 5x5 room for your life? No. So how I do it is this - Measure your snake, then multiply by 1.5 min or 2.0 if you have the means. So a snake 5’ needs a 10’ long enclosure to get healthy excercise. That’s one side, too. A full grown burmese needs a good 8’x10’ bare minimum and preferably a good 12’x20’ or more. Now most people won’t do this for one reason or another (do you have space for a 30’ walk-in? I don’t!), but putting them in something too small is cruel. Again, do you want to be in that box? So if you go by tank size, a 125gal is the smallest for an adult ball. Breeders use smaller, but they don’t give a crap about the snakes usually. If you care, you want your snake to be happy and healthy so get it a big enough enclosure. You can use a 55, but its truly too small when the snake is fully grown. If you adult is 3’, the 55 might pull it off but a 125 is better and allows more growth. A 200-250 is the largest you want (I don’t know anyone selling secure tops bigger than this, so this is where I stop for smaller pythons or boas) and even gives you plenty of space to allow a breeding pair to mate a few times and get some space prior to removal of the male (if you’re into that). The larger enclosure also lets your snake "hunt" its prey, even if feeding f/t. A friend has a 4’ ball in a 200 and its a healthy breeder who "hunts" frozen mice for a few laps prior to actually consticting it as normal. She goes around her tank usually once then "stalks" the prey. Silly I know, but she’s very content in such a large tank. You do what you want, as many do, but I’ve seen plenty of bloated, overweight, mushy snakes from being kept in tiny habitats. I got a 24" red tail in a 10gal and she needs to be moved into a 30 when I get the chance. It just makes for a better pet and long term investment if you’re breeding. |
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| 08/15/08 03:38pm |
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LadyOhh View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1831962 Enclosure size
Quote: Breeders use smaller, but they don’t give a crap about the snakes usually. If you care, you want your snake to be happy and healthy so get it a big enough enclosure.
Excuse me??? I care very deeply for my snakes. ALL of them. Now I can understand that you may be anthropomorphising or something to that extent, but I don’t think you understand why less is more in this case. Ball Pythons live in burrows. Under hides. At what point does giving them more space to HIDE mean it is better??? Most if not all of my BPs, when in tanks, are in their hides 80-90% of the time, no matter how much floor space they have. With that in mind, why give them 2000 gallons of space when they will only utilize 10-20 gallons of that space? |
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| 08/15/08 03:54pm |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1831962 Enclosure size
Snakes are NOT humans. Please don’t compare them. We have much different needs than them, much different... everything than them and they need much different things than us. Not even two similar sized species of snake are anything alike! I think you need to be on one of the colubrid, or other "active snake" forums, because obviously you either don’t know this species or are generalizing all snake species. I cannot fathom how some think that breeders are cruel. They spend thousands of dollars in the care of their snakes, have a vet specialized in herps or their species of animal they breed on speed-dial (even though they probably have never needed it, but just in case), they only breed the healthiest, and are very educated about the needs of their snake. Their snakes? Act like normal ball pythons... hide in their cage, move to different hiding spots when too cool/warm, and drink their water and eat a proper sized meal once a week. I don’t see at all how that could be cruelty. Look "in the wild" and study a snake, will you see it being active when there is plenty of food and water around? noo... what they will be doing? Hiding! To stay away from predators and to wait for the next meal! Sorry, this was a little longer than I thought it would be. |
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| 08/15/08 07:01pm |
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Brembo View Profile |
Message To: LadyOhh In reference to Message Id: 1831974 Enclosure size
If you keep yours in a shoebox, what can I say... |
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| 08/15/08 07:15pm |
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LadyOhh View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1832185 Enclosure size
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| 08/15/08 07:21pm |
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GA_Ball_Pythons View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1831962 Enclosure size
Quote: Basically the snake needs room to move to stay healthy. Too small a space and the snake can bloat, lose good muscle tone (most people can’t tell if it has, but your vet can), and end up being lathargic and unfulfilled. Geez someone need to make those lazy BP in africa who spent 80% of their time hiding move their butt.
Care to back it up! Is it based on experience maybe??? Quote: So if you go by tank size, a 125gal is the smallest for an adult ball. Breeders use smaller, but they don’t give a crap about the snakes usually. No actually breeders have research the subjects are experienced and know what they are talking about unlike someone here
Quote: You do what you want, as many do, but I’ve seen plenty of bloated, overweight, mushy snakes from being kept in tiny habitats. Really???? Can you back this up by your experience or some kind of study???
Quote: a 125gal is the smallest for an adult ball Remind me of somebody! So tell me how do you provide proper temps gradient in a 250 gallons tank??? How do you provide humidity? What is experience with Ball Pythons?
Ball Pytons are very shy snakes that will become stress in an oversized enclosures! This is fact! Yeah I know how about the wild? Well in the wild they spend 80% of their time in termite mounts to only come out at night staying at the entrance of the said mount to ambush their prey, also they are not stressed due to the scrutiny of humans. Quote: "hunts" frozen mice for a few laps prior to actually consticting it as normal. That is an illarious showing yet again you have no idea of what you are talking about! A BP hunting it’s prey doing a few laps!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hmmmm I wonder what’s that smell???
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| 08/15/08 07:33pm |
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Brembo View Profile |
Message To: GA_Ball_Pythons In reference to Message Id: 1832196 Enclosure size
Proof? I guess you know better than the people who’ve been doing this for what... 50+ years? Are people successful with tiny enclosures? Sure. Is it humane? No. Is it what’s best for the snake? No. You want to bring up wild balls? Ok. Wild balls rest in burrows, they don’t live in them. They venture out to feed. I’m sure the jerboa fairy comes by every night and drops a morsel into the burrow because the ball doesn’t need to leave that hole, they need to stay in there. Does the same fairy drop in a mate later too, or is that a different fairy? Justify keeping it in a shoebox and tossing food at it now. Please. Yes this is my second ball. No this is not my first snake - not by a long shot. Balls are not typical of other pythons, but they are pythons and reptilian and certain things are either the same or similar. They are just quirky enough to give the typical owner a headache, and predictable enough to give some respite. And yes, there are balls that do at least one complete lap around the tank before taking prey it knows is there. I don’t know why it does this, I just know it does. The owner has been perplexed by this behavior for years. No one who has seen it can explain it, including someone from the local zoo. And before another stupid, pointless question arises, its a herpetologist that has examined it a few times... |
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| 08/15/08 08:05pm |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1832228 Enclosure size
Quote: balls that do at least one complete lap around the tank before taking prey it knows is there.
So you are going to tell someone that bps do laps around things because one person’s bp did this? hmm... |
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| 08/15/08 08:20pm |
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Barker View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1831962 Enclosure size
Quote: Measure your snake, then multiply by 1.5 min or 2.0 if you have the means. So a snake 5’ needs a 10’ long enclosure to get healthy excercise. That’s one side, too.
Actually for burms, boas, and other large boids it is 2sq feet of floor space per foot of snake at minimum. So if the snake is 5’ long then you would need to provide 10’ of floor space. This can be achieved with a 5’ x 2’ cage. We have our 6’+ male BCI in a 4’ x 2’ cage. Tell me do you think he looks ’bloated’ or doesn’t have good muscle tone?
Ball pythons are not like other boids. Perhaps the reason your friends snake does ’laps’ is because the cage is too large. I bet if she was moved to the proper sized cage she wouldn’t do that. Randi P.S. I can assure you our boy isn’t mushy in the slightest. If you would like to stop by and see you are more then welcome! |
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| 08/15/08 08:33pm |
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Brembo View Profile |
Message To: Reflex In reference to Message Id: 1832244 Enclosure size
And now, a quote; "The floor surface area of an enclosure meant to hold a juvenile ball python should be at least as large as that of a 10-gallon aquarium (20" long by 10" wide). This is the absolute minimum size you should use, and larger enclosures are recommended. For small adults, the floor area should be at least the size of a standard 20-gallon aquarium (24" long by 12" wide); a larger size is preferable. For very large adults, use an enclosure with a floor area of at least a standard 30-gallon aquarium (36" long by 12" wide)." - The Ball Python Manual by Phillipe Vosjoli, with Roger Klingerberg (DVM), Tracy Barker, David Barker, and Alan Bosch Please tell me you know more than Phillipe Vosjoli. Please, I beg you. This is THE expert on reptiles and I really would love to hear you say he doesn’t know anything, or he’s wrong... Something. Now, can this hijack of YOURS cease? To the OP - Do what you will, but in the very least do research first. Don’t use the setups pet shops do, or even some breeders. Trust the people that have been doing this long enough to have dust in their house older than some people who raise balls as if its a "puppy farm". You don’t have to have huge tanks, but you you do need to plan ahead and trust the experts. |
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| 08/15/08 08:41pm |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1832276 Enclosure size
Quote: gallon aquarium (24" long by 12" wide); a larger size is preferable. For very large adults, use an enclosure with a floor area of at least a standard 30-gallon aquarium (36" long by 12" wide)."
You are making no sense anymore. you said at least a 125 gallon! A 30 gallon IS right for an adult ball python, and I have nothing wrong with his statement, but you just dug yourself a hole, because 30 gallons sure as hell isn’t 125 gallons. I will apologize, I was TWO INCHES off. I said 34, it was 36. huge deal. omg. |
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| 08/15/08 08:53pm |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1832276 Enclosure size
Quote: a 125gal is the smallest for an adult ball.
Quote: "The floor surface area of an enclosure meant to hold a juvenile ball python should be at least as large as that of a 10-gallon aquarium (20" long by 10" wide). This is the absolute minimum size you should use, and larger enclosures are recommended. For small adults, the floor area should be at least the size of a standard 20-gallon aquarium (24" long by 12" wide); a larger size is preferable. For very large adults, use an enclosure with a floor area of at least a standard 30-gallon aquarium (36" long by 12" wide)." - The Ball Python Manual by Phillipe Vosjoli, with Roger Klingerberg (DVM), Tracy Barker, David Barker, and Alan Bosch
LMAO.... *wals away from the idiocy* |
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| 08/15/08 08:55pm |
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Barker View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1832276 Enclosure size
Quote: For very large adults, use an enclosure with a floor area of at least a standard 30-gallon aquarium (36" long by 12" wide).
FYI a 41 qt tub that breeders use is 34 3/4"L x 16 1/2"W x 6"H. So, if you think so highly of what Phillipe Vosjoli says then how is that cruel? The floor space is pretty much the same. I never said I knew more then anyone. I was just showing where your theory on cage size belonged(which isn’t with BP’s). Why would I say that he doesn’t know anything? Quote: Now, can this hijack of YOURS cease?
I did not hijack anything. I was simply showing that your statement was incorrect. The OP should have correct information available to him/her. You gave wrong information and it was corrected. I simply showed where your information would be correct. And that is with burms, boas, etc. I do agree that anyone wanting to get any snake should do large amounts of research. After you have searches several places and read through many care sheets, then come and ask any other questions you may have. Best of Luck, Randi |
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| 08/15/08 09:04pm |
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LoftLizard View Profile |
Message To: GA_Ball_Pythons In reference to Message Id: 1832196 Enclosure size
Usually when I feed, the snakes are in their hides waiting for a rodent to walk by... they are not out looking for it, and usually they are in that position for a few DAYS prior to being fed. Sitting. Lurking. Not moving. I have 6 hatchlings that spend almost all their time in their hides... one that I never see out of it. Guess I should inform her that she is going to get bloated and mushy? What is good for ANOTHER SPECIES of snake, may not be good for a BP. You did mention you are new to BPs. Perhaps you need to research them a bit first. That is what I do when I get a new species... but I am old school that way. Bruce |
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| 08/15/08 09:07pm |
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Brembo View Profile |
Message To: LoftLizard In reference to Message Id: 1832295 Enclosure size
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| 08/15/08 09:14pm |
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LoftLizard View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1832304 Enclosure size
Quote: Please tell me you know more than Phillipe Vosjoli. Please, I beg you. This is THE expert on reptiles and I really would love to hear you say he doesn’t know anything, or he’s wrong... Something.
What is the date on that book... I had the same one, from advanced vivarium systems... I threw it in the garbage. Bruce |
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| 08/15/08 09:18pm |
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Brembo View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1832304 Enclosure size
One owner said his ball will not eat if you are watching, but will wait fo you to turn around or walk away and then try to gobble down the food asap. He tossed in a thawed mouse. The snake ignored it. We backed up about 10’ and the snake moved to the mouse and began eating. He then exclaimed, ’quick to the tank!’ and we stepped up to the tank where the ball turned towards us and stopped eating. For the longest it sat there with a mouse half in sorta. He said if we stayed there, he will sit like that all night. We left to look at his other snakes and the ball was done when we got back and back into his hide. I don’t prefess to know why, I just enjoy the uniqueness of the species. |
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| 08/15/08 09:20pm |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: Barker In reference to Message Id: 1832293 Enclosure size
Quote: FYI a 41 qt tub that breeders use is 34 3/4"L x 16 1/2"W x 6"H. So, if you think so highly of what Phillipe Vosjoli says then how is that cruel?
I don’t even know who Phillipe blahblah is. ALL I said was I agree with him that a 30 gallon is a good adult bp cage size. And YOU were the one who said putting it in a tub was cruel. Do you realize 41 qt tubs are what breeders put their snakes in? You are mixing up our words, because you know you made a mistake. I am not dumb. |
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| 08/15/08 10:48pm |
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Barker View Profile |
Message To: Reflex In reference to Message Id: 1832426 Enclosure size
Sorry if you thought that was to you Reflex. Yes I know that is what breeders put them in. I didn’t mix any of my words. Prehaps you though Brembo posted that? Randi |
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| 08/15/08 11:31pm |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: Barker In reference to Message Id: 1832465 Enclosure size
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| 08/15/08 11:42pm |
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GA_Ball_Pythons View Profile |
Message To: Reflex In reference to Message Id: 1832474 Enclosure size
Quote: Hello, I’m new and would like your input on how long do you let a baby ball acclimate to its new habitat? Link |
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| 08/16/08 04:04am |
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LoftLizard View Profile |
Message To: GA_Ball_Pythons In reference to Message Id: 1832603 Enclosure size
B |
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| 08/16/08 04:17am |
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Reflex View Profile |
Message To: GA_Ball_Pythons In reference to Message Id: 1832603 Enclosure size
Barker, sirry again for the mix up. your names both start with B lol! |
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| 08/16/08 05:17am |
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Leos for life View Profile |
Message To: Reflex In reference to Message Id: 1831950
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| 08/16/08 07:52am |
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Rabernet View Profile |
Message To: Brembo In reference to Message Id: 1831962 Enclosure size
Quote: I am new to balls
Quote: Breeders use smaller, but they don’t give a crap about the snakes usually.
Since you’re new to balls, we’ll just assume you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Breeders care very much about their snakes. I’ve kept ball pythons long enough to KNOW that they prefer smaller, snug enclosures that mimic burrows that they CHOOSE to stay crammed into in Africa. They feed better and they breed better when kept properly. NONE of mine are mushy. Quote: If you adult is 3’, the 55 might pull it off but a 125 is better and allows more growth.
Ball pythons grow - their enclosure size has nothing to do whith how they grow. Quote: but I’ve seen plenty of bloated, overweight, mushy snakes from being kept in tiny habitats.
Where? I’d love to see pictures. |
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| 08/16/08 08:57am |
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Rabernet View Profile |
Message To: Rabernet In reference to Message Id: 1832658 Enclosure size
Pythons of the World |
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| 08/16/08 09:05am |
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Enclosure size 
